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Author Previous Topic: Max Engine Miles per Hour Topic Next Topic: Small Layout Design Help/Challenge - c.1905 Pennsy
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hminky
Fireman



Posted - 12/25/2018 :  2:23:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit hminky's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The Labelle OR&W maybe the right car as it is a Billmeyer & Small design.

https://www.labellemodels.com/hon3-ohio-river-western-p-83.html?osCsid=qkc3ace7ocdknrl6815dmnti35

This is the On30 Bachmann prototype.

Harold




Edited by - hminky on 12/25/2018 2:27:44 PM

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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 12/25/2018 :  3:28:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Plans for OR&W 25í boxcars are in the July/August 2000 and March/April 2009 NG&SL Gazettes.

Mike



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Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 12/25/2018 :  3:52:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ryan,

In general, standard gauge cars are too wide for narrow gauge, but they can be narrowed. Iíve done that for the BTS XA car, which is a nice kit. The exposed end sills can be left off; the siding on the kit extends down behind the sills. My latest LV car is a narrowed and modified XA.



I built it during the 2018 Challenge, starting here:

http://railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=49923&whichpage=17

The Amesville Shops resin kit is no longer available to my knowledge and would be hard to modify.

Mike


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Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

Posted - 12/25/2018 :  4:30:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike, thatís great to know that the end sills can be left off and the siding extends down. Iíll take a look at your build to see how you narrowed the kit... it does look slimmer. I really admire your modeling, especially your car builds. As I said, Iím going to build the Bitter Creek car straight, without modification just to see how things work out. That should give me an idea of how well their car architecture can be narrowed.


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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 12/25/2018 :  5:14:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ryan,

The Bitter Creek kits go together really nice. If you didnít know, Bob Harris built several here:

http://railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48869&whichpage=1

Iíll be interested in seeing what you think of the kit.

Mike


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Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

Posted - 12/25/2018 :  8:17:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike, I had forgotten about Bob Harrisís build. He did a hell of a nice step-by-step. Thanks for reminding me.

That LVRR car from the BTS Pennsy XA looks fantastic. Nicely narrowed. Looking at that kit and the Bitter Creek cars, it looks like the BTS cars can be narrowed much more easily. Was there enough height on the side siding to make up for the slightly taller sides? And how did you approach the roof?

Iím trying to stay true to prototype as best I can, but with the lack of hard details or fantastic photos, Iím going for best effort for the information we currently have. Dimensions/proportions are important. So are details we can see. On the box cars, I think theyíre 25í-28í long and about 8í wide. I can sorta see where vertical grabs are located and that there doesnít appear to be ladders or grab irons leading to the roof on the sides of the cars. I know they had air brakes. I also have an idea of the door hardware, but Iím too novice to really know what Iím seeing there or how to model it. Thatís where Iíll be asking for help.



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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 12/25/2018 :  9:09:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ryan,

The XA matched dimensions of the LV car fairly well except for width so I didnít have to heighten the sides. I once modified the BTS B&O cars by gluing 4 by 4 to the upper edges of sides and ends and hiding the extensions with the 4Ē fascia. Obviously this trick is limited by the width of the fascia.

I agree the BTS car looks easier to narrow than the Bitter Creek car.

Have you considered the Labelle narrow gauge cars?

Mike


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Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

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deemery
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 12/26/2018 :  08:19:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Once you've built one or two wooden kits, you'll see that scratchbuilding these cars is pretty easy.

dave


Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)

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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

Posted - 12/26/2018 :  08:36:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike - Thanks for all the great information. 27 years ago or so, my Pap bought me a Labelle caboose kit. It was utterly beyond my skill set as a 13 year old, and because of that I guess I have shied away from them. Maybe it's time to give another look. The OR&W 24' boxcar looks like it has the right proportions and may in fact be correct for the WD&L.

Dave - that's sorta my plan. Once I get comfortable building a kit or two and familiar with the methods of how they go together I hope to scratchbuild what I can. I've been studying a bunch of craftsman kit and scratch builds here on railroad-line, and I feel like I'm plenty capable of putting some of these together myself. The nice thing is that every car I build is a long-term investment in time and skills, since all of the prototypes I'm really interested in are Pennsylvania narrow and short lines from the early part of the 20th century. Many of these cars (and locomotives...) very well may end up on new layouts decades from now.

Locomotives. Santa did NOT bring me an HOn3 Class B Climax. Or a 20-ton Dunkirk. Or HOn3 Climax trucks. Fooey. :)

R



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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 12/26/2018 :  10:26:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ryan,

I was a little older than you when I tried my first wood freight car kit and if memory serves me right it went reasonably well. I had tried my hand at scratchbuilding with mixed results. But sometime in my mid teens my coordination caught up with my ambitions.

I think laser kits are an excellent entry into kit building. The Amesville Shops 34í Pennsylvania RR boxcar is appropriate to your 1905 time frame. You could build it for the day you have both narrow and standard gauge tracks.

Mike


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Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

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brian budeit
New Hire

Posted - 12/30/2018 :  6:44:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Second attempt to post some pictures of my hon3 25 ton Climax. Pretty sure the attachment worked this time. Built from a Jonan 18 ton kit. New boiler, frame and flywheel cranks. Same cab, tank and trucks. Runs well but very noisy gears. Considering belt drive from Nigel Lawton to quiet things down. Prototype ran on East Waterford & Kansas Valley in Pa, and on occasion the Tuscarora Valley. Really like the thread, by all means build the milkcar, plans were in the Gazette.
brian b

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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

Posted - 12/30/2018 :  10:13:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh my goodness! Brian, that looks fantastic! Iím really impressed. Thank you for taking the time to get the attachments to work. Is the Jonan kit the same as the Flying Zoo 18-ton? Youíve given new life to the possibility of getting an appropriate Climax for the White Deer & Loganton. (And other PA prototypes Iím interested in!) Seriously, great modeling. I have a million questions. If you donít mind, maybe I could drop you an email.

Glad youíre enjoying the thread. Any chance you know what issue of the Gazette the milk car was in? I havenít had luck finding anything in my searches for either WD&L, Lauralton or Eagles Mere railroads when searching for past issues. Iím not sure if thereís an index somewhere I havenít come across yet...

So psyched to see that Climax. Thanks again!



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brian budeit
New Hire

Posted - 12/31/2018 :  11:18:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ryan,
Glad you like the Alfarata, feel free to ask any and all questions, either here or to my e mail. Yes, the Jonan kit is all the same tooling as the Flying Zoo 18 ton climax, except in my opinion the gears weren't cut nearly as well as the Flying Zoo model. My 18 ton Climax is fairly quiet at slow speeds, no such luck with the Jonan engine, it has a horrible gear whine. Could be because of my mods to make a 25 ton engine, but after almost 20 years its as noisy as ever. As mentioned, a belt drive transmission, and possibly a motor with a gear head may be in the future.
The milk car is in the July-August 1995 issue of the Gazette, drawn by the late Ted Collins. The milk car survived as a shed on the north end of the Tuscarora Valley at least into th 1950's, so there is a chance Ted was able to lay a tape on the real car while it was in existence. My modeling era is around 1905, so the car wasn't on the TVRR yet, but I still want to model it. Pretty sure those two WD&L boxcars went to the TVRR with the milk car. They don't look like Billemeyer & Smalls to me, unless built late in B&S's existence. However, B&S would build to customers spec's, so its possible they are B&S. Look to be fairly new for the era, decent capacity cars. There was so much second hand equipment for sale in the 90's and turn of the century, they could have come from anywhere.
Funero & Camerlengo made resin kits for a Cairo & Kanawa boxcar that looks reasonably close to the WD&L cars. I think the C&K cars are a little short compared to the WD&L cars, but if you don't want to scrachbuild them its an easy way to go.
The WD&L and the Laurelton Lumber Co are two of my favorite narrow gauges, looking foreward to more posts and pictures. Thanks for the caboose pictures, another modeling project on the long list.
brian b



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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

Posted - 01/03/2019 :  09:05:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is great information. Seriously. An HOn3 25-ton Climax is the one thing that would make the White Deer & Loganton (and other PA narrow gauge railroads) truly come to reality for me. Finding geared HOn3 Climax trucks is my big hurdle. (Santa didn't deliver the NWSL trucks at the top of my wish list. Now he's on MY 'naughty list'. Ha.) Next challenge would be a crossbox to drive the flywheels, but there are published scratch builds and kit bashes that give a good idea on how to make that work. I had even been considering going from HO to 1/72 and using a Bachmann Climax mechanism as a basis. The measurements come out right (length, width, truck spacing...) and that would give a good mechanism with DCC and sound out of the gate. But on HO track at 1/72, it isn't 3' gauge... more like 3'10". Not sure I like that...

I DO like the idea of a belt drive. That should eliminate a lot of the gear noise. Did you use the Jonan/Flying Zoo cross box to drive the flywheels/pistons? I have been looking at some of the other HOn3 brass Climaxes... currently offered a Westside Class A... just to get a set of trucks. If the Jonan/Flying Zoo has more usable parts for a build, I may hold out.

Fantastic info on the milk car being in the Gazette. I just looked and it's only noted as a "3' Milk Car" in the table of contents. I'll definitely model it. That car has a pretty neat history.

I need to see if I have the PA logging book that features the Tuscaroroa Valley. If ex-WD&L stock was heading that way, that gives me another avenue of researching the rolling stock. I agree, the boxcars don't look like B&S to my eye, but I don't have a good profile or end view of the cars. That could actually be an advantage... gives a little latitude in modeling them. But I'd rather know for sure.

The caboose! Another I wish I had better photos of! It looks to have a lot of character. Had to tell the cupola arrangement and what the porch ends look like from the photos I have.

Central PA had so many neat narrow gauges. I live in Mifflinburg, and there were so many little roads within a 30 minute drive from home. Add all the narrow gauge and short lines around Sullivan County, and I have a lifetime of modeling subjects. Any chance you're in Pennsylvania somewhere, Brian? This era in central Pennsylvania really is a fascinating railroad time.




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brian budeit
New Hire

Posted - 01/03/2019 :  1:56:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Ryan,

Yes, my climax uses the Jonan cross box. If you are considering 1/72 scale, have you considered On30? Bachman makes a nice 25 ton climax that could easily be backdated or enlarged to a 30 ton enine. The cars could be bashed from the plastic On30 equipment. You could probably model the entire WD&L roster for less than one hon3 Jonan or Flying Zoo engine. I realize O scale buildings are much larger than Ho, but your planned module doesn't have many buildings, mainly the station. Just a thought.
The logging books covered the Tionesta Valley, not the Tuscarora Valley. George Piierson wrote the TVRR book, shouldn't be too hard to find a copy. TVRR equipment came from the Addison & N Pa, the Chateaugay, the EBT, and others. The 1917 ICC valuation isn't very precise or accurate.
One other modeling suggestion. Shapeways has a 3D printed model of a 25 ton climax designed to fit over an N scale diesel drive. You would have to figure out how to make the cylinders and flywheels operate, but for under $100.00 you could have something to start with. The climax represents the last version they built, with a steel cab.
I live south of Pittsburgh, and Pa narrow gauge is my main interest. Colorado & California narrow gauges are great, but lots of folks are already researching and modeling them. Pa narrow gauge is a little less common, I kind of like that.
brian



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