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 Converting Roundhouse 4-4-0 to a 4-6-0 Project
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Author Topic Next Topic: Letís Talk Motors  

SAFN SAAP
Engine Wiper

Premium Member


Posted - 05/25/2018 :  11:17:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Y'all,

After looking at the Roundhouse 2-8-0's, the idea came to me to make a 4-6-0 with drag freight drivers, either 51" or 56" Mantua's out of a modified Roundhouse 4-4-0 frame, which I have. I am going to take measurements and see if this is possible, and then I am going to have the frame modified and cast.

I have no idea why Roundhouse never made a 4-6-0 which could have easily been made with a new frame, but that is water under the bridge. It is time to come up with a pre-1900 4-6-0 and I'm going to try this project out. It will be slow going, but I will document everything here.

Since the Mantua 4-6-0 is over-scaled, I feel I need these locomotives, and I am going to start the bash. Boiler and cab options will also be looked at, including modifying the pilot of the frame.

Hopefully you will subscribe, and share some ideas.

Thanks,

Manny

Edited by - SAFN SAAP on 05/25/2018 11:21:42 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 364

alabamacentral
New Hire

Posted - 05/26/2018 :  12:17:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Manny,

It's good to see you online again. I used to enjoy seeing your work displayed on Frisco.org. I will be watching as you carry on with this thread. ( and enjoying)


Robert

Country: USA | Posts: 14 Go to Top of Page

SAFN SAAP
Engine Wiper

Premium Member


Posted - 05/26/2018 :  01:32:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks. I appreciate that.

I looked over my frames tonight and it appears that the 4-4-0 frame needs to be redone completely. 51" drivers will not work with simply adding a slot between the two established slots which house the 63" drivers.

I am looking at 56" drivers from Greenway Products for the project. I will have to redo the frame and have it recast.

I saw that someone made a 2-8-0 frame on Shapeways, but that seems to be a weak point because there is NO weight on the axles of the engine.

I want to redo the pilot to be a tube pilot up front with a full functioning knuckle coupler. I will use the 2-8-0 steam chest with alligator cross-heads. More than likely, new side rods will need to be made, along with drive rods.

This should be an interesting project.

I'll try to put some pictures up tomorrow.

I don't know if 61" drivers would work either.

Thanks,

Manny



Country: USA | Posts: 364 Go to Top of Page

tct855
Crew Chief

Premium Member


Posted - 05/26/2018 :  07:50:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit tct855's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Manny,
I'll be standing in the workshop doorway looking over Bama's shoulder eating buttered popcorn (not aloud in with food I know).

This sounds like an interesting build for sure. Please, proceed sir! Thanx Thom...



Country: USA | Posts: 518 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 05/26/2018 :  09:55:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Manny,

Other than the oversize Mantua and a very few in brass, pre-1900 ten-wheelers have simply not been available. Iím interested in what you come up with.

Mike




Country: USA | Posts: 3955 Go to Top of Page

SAFN SAAP
Engine Wiper

Premium Member


Posted - 05/26/2018 :  12:10:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you all,

I have been contemplating, that if this is a success, how much of a demand for a conversion kit would be out there? Hmmm....

I'll be posting up some pics soon.

Manny



Country: USA | Posts: 364 Go to Top of Page

SAFN SAAP
Engine Wiper

Premium Member


Posted - 05/26/2018 :  2:37:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay,

Open thoughts...

There appears to be two lines available to this project. One is minimal lower frame modification. The other is extensive modification.

Small Driver 4-6-0

The upgraded 2-8-0 from Athearn is the ideal frame to start with from the opening with a small driver 4-6-0. The front, or number one (1) driver would be replaced with indents for the four (4) wheel pilot truck. The only change to be done for this locomotive is to move the rear driver back giving the Ten Wheeler that off-set look. Modifications would need to be made to the bottom retaining plate, as it would move into the area of the draw bar. I notch would need to be made with a cast bushing for the draw bar to sit in, and a screw to be inserted to hold the draw bar in place. New side rods would need to be made to accommodate the spacing of the 3rd and 2nd driver. The new number 1 driver would need a flange, and so would the number 3 driver. The new middle driver would be blind. No changes to the drive rod, or the cross-head guide location are needed.

This would produce a nice 4-6-0 of early years, suitable for drag freights where you need power, and less speed. Using 55" drivers could work, but would require a lot more redesigning. I will look into this.


High Driver 4-6-0

The 4-4-0 frame is ideal to start with, however, many changes have to be made to its structure. Either the front axle slot would need to be moved forward, which would make the idle gear contact the drive gear at the 2 o'clock position, or the whole cavity that houses the idle gear and the motor would need to be moved forward. The rear driver would need to be moved back, where the new location would be were the rear edge of the existing slot is.

This version could require a newly re-engineered cross head guide, and will need new side rods. New drive rods would also possibly need to be made. The rods from the 2-8-0 might work.

This engine would have 63" drivers and would be for fast passenger, or small freight service.

I'm working on drawings right now. I'll have them up soon.

Thanks,

Manny


If you see anything I may have missed or have ideas, please let me know! No input is deemed unworthy, and you might see something I miss, which I would be very grateful for.

Many Thanks!



Country: USA | Posts: 364 Go to Top of Page

railman28
Fireman



Posted - 05/26/2018 :  3:03:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll be following along with great interest. There are two brass model of 19th century Ten-wheelers. GHB(?) did V&T 25 and Gem did a CM 4-6-0. Both are hard fines.

It's only make-believe

Country: USA | Posts: 4692 Go to Top of Page

tct855
Crew Chief

Premium Member


Posted - 05/26/2018 :  3:13:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit tct855's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Manny,

Pictures brother! This rail by braille reading leaves me with only using my mind to follow along.

Trust me, you don't want me using my mind on this forum. Just sayin'.

Thanx Thom...



Country: USA | Posts: 518 Go to Top of Page

Ray46
Engine Wiper

Posted - 05/26/2018 :  5:29:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tct855

Manny,

Pictures brother! This rail by braille reading leaves me with only using my mind to follow along.

Trust me, you don't want me using my mind on this forum. Just sayin'.

Thanx Thom...



Agreed, model railroading is a visual hobby.



Country: USA | Posts: 259 Go to Top of Page

Glen Haasdyk
Fireman



Posted - 05/27/2018 :  12:17:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I seem to remember that John Allen made a 2-6-0 out of an MDC 0-6-0. He moved the rear driver back by cutting a new slot in the frame for the axle and extended the pilot for the pilot trucks.


Country: Canada | Posts: 2146 Go to Top of Page

Frank Palmer
Fireman



Posted - 05/27/2018 :  09:32:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit Frank Palmer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tct855

Manny,

Pictures brother! This rail by braille reading leaves me with only using my mind to follow along.

Trust me, you don't want me using my mind on this forum. Just sayin'.

Thanx Thom...




My eyes must be going bad. I can't see a darn thing.



Country: USA | Posts: 4718 Go to Top of Page

SAFN SAAP
Engine Wiper

Premium Member


Posted - 05/28/2018 :  2:59:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good Afternoon Y'all,

Sorry for the delay. I had to recover from the deafening roars of NO PICTURES! LOL. Anyhow, I started preliminary work on drawings for this project. Now let me say that the Roundhouse/Athearn Old Time Engines are very basic and generic, and in a manner of speaking, tin-plate, because all that was done was to change out the frame to different wheel configurations. That being said, the engines can give a good platform to create little beauties.

My idea came that a pre-1900 4-6-0 was needed in the niche of steam locomotives. I knew that this would require kit-bashing as manufacturer's have all but abandoned the 1880-1911 period. So the conversion of the Roundhouse frame to a 4-6-0 is completely doable. This challenge in one I am willing to accept.

Taking a 4-4-0 frame and a 2-8-0 frame and combining the two will allow a staggered 4-6-0 configuration with 51" drivers, which is perfect for freight drags. I am contacting Greenway Products to see if they have 55" drivers in squared counter weights that can be used for the project. The question will be if the drivers can be swapped onto Roundhouse axles, or if the axles will have to be used from Greenway Products. Roundhouse are 1/8" axles, and Greenway are 3mm axles. The question is if the seating area on the axles is the same. If they are, I can swap the 55's onto the Roundhouse axles. Otherwise, I have to decide what to do with this issue. The 51" wheels look good, but 55" wheels might be the creme de creme of the project.

The question will be as to whether a new master can be made from styrene or if I need to cut up frames to create this project. I have a call into Evergreen to see if it can withstand 210* temps required for the master making vacuum process. If so, I have a master model maker who can replicate the frame in styrene for casting. If not I will have to make it some other way, or cut and splice Roundhouse frames to make the new frame.

Here are some pics so you understand what is going on...

Here is the 2-6-0 with 51" drivers. Spacing is too far apart, but is caused by sharing the same axle slots are the 63" drivers.




Here is the 4-4-0 frame with 63" drivers. Here you can see the cut outs for the 4 wheel front pilot wheels. These will be incorporated into the new frame for the 4-6-0.



Here is the 2-8-0 frame with 51" drivers. With this engine you can see the idea. Remove the front driver and move the rear driver back farther. Put a 4 wheel pilot truck up front, and you have a small 4-6-0!



The retaining plate for the drivers will need to be redesigned. The draw-bar attaching point will also need to be redesigned. The brake cylinder may have to be relocated as well.



Here is the preliminary sketch. It shows the location of the drivers. The frame is 1:1, while the drivers are not quite the right size. The drive rod will be located on the second driver. Both the Alligator or the Cross-Laird can be used. I prefer the Alligator style.

The location of the second drive is not final. I still have to measure for brake shoes. I am going for the classic off-set look, very similar to Cooke or Brooks Locomotives.




Again, in the preliminary stages of making this locomotive, I would appreciate your thoughts and ideas. I will be contacting Denny, CWRailman, as I have a question regarding the idler gear assembly that Roundhouse uses.

If you have any ideas, or thoughts, or something you might like incorporated, please let me know. Depending on the interest, I may make this a conversion kit available to the public.

More to come shortly, including the drawings for a high driver 4-6-0.

Thanks,

Manny



Country: USA | Posts: 364 Go to Top of Page

railman28
Fireman



Posted - 05/28/2018 :  6:32:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wish you luck on this. In my explorations I have found the roundhouse and mantua 0-6-0 frames more promising.

It's only make-believe

Country: USA | Posts: 4692 Go to Top of Page

Frank Palmer
Fireman



Posted - 05/28/2018 :  8:10:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frank Palmer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wow, that's a redesign for sure. Good luck.


Country: USA | Posts: 4718 Go to Top of Page
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