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Author Previous Topic: Sound Topic Next Topic: What happened to battery Powered Radio Controlled
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Corsair
New Hire

Posted - 11/19/2017 :  11:12:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bernd



There is a bit of confusion here about this circuit. The two capacitors and the voltage regulator is a step down converter. The voltage regulator will take an incoming voltage and step it down to 5 volts. That would be a 7805. There are different makes of voltage regulators for different voltage out puts. The capacitors smooth out the voltage to a more pure DC current. They do not act as a “Keep Alive” source.


I will preface this by saying electronics are not my strong suit, so I am prepared to be wrong about this. I think we may be talking about 2 uses of the same(ish) circuit. Even Deltang mentions the roll of the capacitor in preventing "brownout." I'm mostly basing this on how the keep alives get hooked up. They go to the positive and negative feeds, past the rectifier. I think that's more or less what I'm seeing here. In my case I wouldn't be looking to smooth a sine wave, but to store power. I think the difference shows up in where you place the regulator vs the caps. You're using the regulator to smooth the caps, not the other way around.

I don't know if this is right, but maybe? Sorry for the hand drawings.



I'm looking at something like this for the caps



I finally sat down and found the formulas and did some math. If you put 3 x .33F @ 5.5V caps in series, you get one .1F @ 16.5V equivalent. Each of the 3 cells is only 10.5mm in diameter and 5mm thick. A tenth of a Farad is a ton of power. Using some hazy math, converting to Joules at 12V, that much capacitance is something like having a 240mAh battery. It's not nearly that simple, as the caps discharge to 0V and become unusable at some point. Still, that's minutes of operation from seconds of charging. There is a second option with larger cells that would store a full .5F of charge.



Below is plan B. The other charger I got at the store. Just a basic R/C charger with the case broken off. Charged a 1000mAh battery in about 5 minutes from a USB port. Cut off that big plug and hardwire and it's ready to go. Without the power balance chip of the bigger board, you would use this system while turned off. Couple of minutes getting "fuel" and you're off. Use switches to make sure the battery is either hooked to the "charge" or "run" branch.





Edited by - Corsair on 11/19/2017 11:20:21 AM

Country: | Posts: 18 Go to Top of Page

Bernd
Fireman



Posted - 11/19/2017 :  12:30:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bernd's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rickie

Bernd,

If you get a moment, could you possibly type out a shopping list for me for Del Tang equipment in order that I may purchase from their webpage. I am leaning toward 4 individual locomotive styled transmitters TX21's and one with Selectra, so a TX22.

This leaves me wondering about which receivers to order.


Since you've already selected the Tx22 I'd say the Rx61-22 would be the one to use. On board battery monitor if you are going to use a battery booster and it's set up for "Selecta". The Rx61-1 for the Tx21's. Don't know what your preference is for throttle, center off or low off, as per his wording.

This would be what I would use. I haven't studied the "Selecta". I don't think I'd want that. Personal preference.

I need to get back into playing around with these receiver's. I haven't purchased any thing from David in several years. That could change once I hear how you made out buying from Micron Electronics.

Bernd




A PESSIMIST sees a dark tunnel
An OPTIMIST sees light at the end of the tunnel
A REALIST sees a freight train
The LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEER sees three idiots standing on the tracks

Country: USA | Posts: 2606 Go to Top of Page

Bernd
Fireman



Posted - 11/19/2017 :  1:09:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bernd's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Corsair

I will preface this by saying electronics are not my strong suit, so I am prepared to be wrong about this. I think we may be talking about 2 uses of the same(ish) circuit. Even Deltang mentions the roll of the capacitor in preventing "brownout." I'm mostly basing this on how the keep alives get hooked up. They go to the positive and negative feeds, past the rectifier. I think that's more or less what I'm seeing here. In my case I wouldn't be looking to smooth a sine wave, but to store power. I think the difference shows up in where you place the regulator vs the caps. You're using the regulator to smooth the caps, not the other way around.

I don't know if this is right, but maybe? Sorry for the hand drawings.


Lets see if we can get this subject straightened out. In KA circuit you can use either a capacitor or a battery to get you over that speck of dirt. In a voltage regulator circuit you can't substitute a battery for the capacitor.

Here's a couple of links to an explanation of the how's and why's of a capacitor in a voltage regulator circuit.

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/diode/diode_5.html

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/diode/diode_6.html

Instead of using three 33uF caps use one of these: https://www.jameco.com/z/EECS5R5V105-Stacked-Coin-Type-Electric-Double-Layer-Capacitor-1F-5-5VDC_227811.html

I used one way back for a maker light flasher on the back of a caboose. Worked great.

Bernd


A PESSIMIST sees a dark tunnel
An OPTIMIST sees light at the end of the tunnel
A REALIST sees a freight train
The LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEER sees three idiots standing on the tracks

Country: USA | Posts: 2606 Go to Top of Page

Rickie
New Hire

Posted - 11/19/2017 :  5:24:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Bernd,

Appreciate all the advice you've given me..

I'll let you know when I receive product from Micron radio Control.

Rick



Country: Canada | Posts: 35 Go to Top of Page

Rickie
New Hire

Posted - 11/21/2017 :  8:03:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bernd, Rick here.

Hope all is well.

Micron is wondering what type of battery battery lead I want (from battery to charger)..... do I want a (JST-RCY or JST-PH)?

If you have any advice here, I'd appreciate your help. You too Corsair.

Cheers

Rick



Country: Canada | Posts: 35 Go to Top of Page

Bernd
Fireman



Posted - 11/22/2017 :  07:17:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bernd's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rickie

Bernd, Rick here.

Hope all is well.

Micron is wondering what type of battery battery lead I want (from battery to charger)..... do I want a (JST-RCY or JST-PH)?

If you have any advice here, I'd appreciate your help. You too Corsair.

Cheers

Rick



Hi Rick,

Can't help you out here. Best is get the battery you are going to use and go from there. I usually make up my own connections depending on how I'm going to hook up things.

Interesting that they ask what kind of connections you want. Shows great service to the customer.

Bernd


A PESSIMIST sees a dark tunnel
An OPTIMIST sees light at the end of the tunnel
A REALIST sees a freight train
The LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEER sees three idiots standing on the tracks

Country: USA | Posts: 2606 Go to Top of Page

Rickie
New Hire

Posted - 11/24/2017 :  11:16:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Bernd

Well, it was mostly a case of not understanding the manner in which the connections are set up. I have a basic grasp now after having spent about an hour in an Ottawa RC hobby shop specializing in everything but trains. Nice people who were only too willing to assist me. Purchased an upscale charger while I was there.

I cancelled my request for Micron to add a battery connector and instead have purchased a couple from the hobby shop that fit the connections on the two Lipo batteries I bought. All good...... I think.

So, I have now placed orders for 3 transmitters and 3 receivers from Andy at Micron.

I also plan on ordering a Bluerail starter kit. Getting my hands on the actual products will take me a long way toward deciding which way I want to go.

Happy Thanksgiving my American friends

Rick



Country: Canada | Posts: 35 Go to Top of Page

Bernd
Fireman



Posted - 11/25/2017 :  08:26:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bernd's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Rickie,

Thanks for the well wishs.

Sounds like you have it under control. Keep us updated as to your progress putting it all together. The more info we can get out there the better modelers will understand how it all goes together.

Bernd


A PESSIMIST sees a dark tunnel
An OPTIMIST sees light at the end of the tunnel
A REALIST sees a freight train
The LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEER sees three idiots standing on the tracks

Country: USA | Posts: 2606 Go to Top of Page

Bernd
Fireman



Posted - 11/27/2017 :  7:59:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bernd's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've done some experiments with the Fly-Sky FS-GT2E Tx, Rx, and ESC. Using a 6 volt battery pack I assembled all the components, put fresh batteries in the Tx. Added a 6 volt motor to the mix and turned on the power. The system functioned as you would expect for somebody that needs to either run their car/boat at fast or totally stopped. Motor control was very disappointing. I tried some ideas, but no improvement. I have one more item I want to test, but it means I need to order a servo.

So far this has been a disappointing experiment. Motor control is not what I expected. As a matter of fact motor control is almost nonexistent. The motor starts out a high voltage and control is very limited from that speed to full.

So this experiment is on hold till I get a servo.

Bernd


A PESSIMIST sees a dark tunnel
An OPTIMIST sees light at the end of the tunnel
A REALIST sees a freight train
The LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEER sees three idiots standing on the tracks

Country: USA | Posts: 2606 Go to Top of Page

Rickie
New Hire

Posted - 11/27/2017 :  9:57:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good work, Bernd,

How will you utilize the servo?

Is it possibly a function of the quality of the ESC?

At my end, I cannot successfully fit the Lipo battery into the specific tender I had originally thought would have room for it. It was the smallest Lipo I could buy at the Ottawa RC Hobby store and is 400 Mah.

So I am making a new tender out of wood based on required dimensions for inclusion of the current Lipo, the receiver and wires etc. I'll install the trucks from current tenders. Annoying, but just a bump in the road.

I'm somewhat better at modelling than I am at electronics. :)

Rick



Country: Canada | Posts: 35 Go to Top of Page

Bernd
Fireman



Posted - 11/28/2017 :  07:51:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bernd's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rickie

Good work, Bernd,

How will you utilize the servo?

Is it possibly a function of the quality of the ESC?

At my end, I cannot successfully fit the Lipo battery into the specific tender I had originally thought would have room for it. It was the smallest Lipo I could buy at the Ottawa RC Hobby store and is 400 Mah.

So I am making a new tender out of wood based on required dimensions for inclusion of the current Lipo, the receiver and wires etc. I'll install the trucks from current tenders. Annoying, but just a bump in the road.

I'm somewhat better at modelling than I am at electronics. :)

Rick



Thanks Rick.

I was to frustrated to do any testing. It looks like the ESC unit turns on the motor at a high voltage causing the motor to run fast. Plus there is very little control of motor speed. Not a good thing for train control.

I see you've run into a problem also. Sounds like you have a good solution to the problem.

You'll be come an electronics expert after you let some of the magic smoke out. I've done that and have had a few explosive smoke bombs too!

Bernd


A PESSIMIST sees a dark tunnel
An OPTIMIST sees light at the end of the tunnel
A REALIST sees a freight train
The LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEER sees three idiots standing on the tracks

Country: USA | Posts: 2606 Go to Top of Page

Rickie
New Hire

Posted - 11/28/2017 :  10:01:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bernd, what happens when we hook up a 7.4 volt 2S lipo to a locomotive with a 12V motor. Does it just run slower?
I suppose it would also have with less pulling power... am I correct?

But, will there be any damage to either the Lipo or the Motor?

Thks

Rick



Country: Canada | Posts: 35 Go to Top of Page

BurleyJim
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 11/28/2017 :  10:36:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Corsair

quote:
Originally posted by Bernd



There is a bit of confusion here about this circuit. The two capacitors and the voltage regulator is a step down converter. The voltage regulator will take an incoming voltage and step it down to 5 volts. That would be a 7805. There are different makes of voltage regulators for different voltage out puts. The capacitors smooth out the voltage to a more pure DC current. They do not act as a “Keep Alive” source.


I will preface this by saying electronics are not my strong suit, so I am prepared to be wrong about this. I think we may be talking about 2 uses of the same(ish) circuit. Even Deltang mentions the roll of the capacitor in preventing "brownout." I'm mostly basing this on how the keep alives get hooked up. They go to the positive and negative feeds, past the rectifier. I think that's more or less what I'm seeing here. In my case I wouldn't be looking to smooth a sine wave, but to store power. I think the difference shows up in where you place the regulator vs the caps. You're using the regulator to smooth the caps, not the other way around.

I don't know if this is right, but maybe? Sorry for the hand drawings.



I'm looking at something like this for the caps



I finally sat down and found the formulas and did some math. If you put 3 x .33F @ 5.5V caps in series, you get one .1F @ 16.5V equivalent. Each of the 3 cells is only 10.5mm in diameter and 5mm thick. A tenth of a Farad is a ton of power. Using some hazy math, converting to Joules at 12V, that much capacitance is something like having a 240mAh battery. It's not nearly that simple, as the caps discharge to 0V and become unusable at some point. Still, that's minutes of operation from seconds of charging. There is a second option with larger cells that would store a full .5F of charge.



Below is plan B. The other charger I got at the store. Just a basic R/C charger with the case broken off. Charged a 1000mAh battery in about 5 minutes from a USB port. Cut off that big plug and hardwire and it's ready to go. Without the power balance chip of the bigger board, you would use this system while turned off. Couple of minutes getting "fuel" and you're off. Use switches to make sure the battery is either hooked to the "charge" or "run" branch.






I've been following this thread a little. While you guys are making some calculations. There is a formula to checkout. TC=RC. TC is Time constant. The RC is Resistance in ohms times Capacitance in farads. So a 50 ohm motor resistance X .1 farad = 5 seconds. In 5 seconds, 63% of the available power is used. After 5 Time constants (25 seconds) all power is gone. Here's another rabbit hole to jump into....http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html

Jim



Country: USA | Posts: 3389 Go to Top of Page

quartergauger48
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 11/28/2017 :  11:14:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Reminds me of algebra class'..Nice web site Jim'.

Keep up the good work Bernd'..Not my cup of tea, but fun to read'..




Ted

Country: USA | Posts: 5605 Go to Top of Page

Bernd
Fireman



Posted - 11/29/2017 :  08:30:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bernd's Homepage  Reply with Quote
@Jim,

Great info for the "Keep-Alive" subject.

@Rick,

The reason the ESC doesn't work on this system is the frequency, as in PWM, (Pulse Width Modulation)is around 1000Hz (1KHz) and the starting voltage is set higher due to the fact these were designed to control cars and boats. Those guys want instant on motor for running. Not conducive to starting model railroad locomotive motors.

I'm considering this experiment with the Fly-Sky system closed for now. I'm going to go with the Deltang Rx60 series receivers. I discovered I had three buried in my cabinet.

Right now I'm deciding whether to post in the forum on the project in progress or to write an article for the model railroad press.

P.S. I'm going to quote two modelers from the other forum where I got the info from. They explain in better terms than I can.

Bernd


A PESSIMIST sees a dark tunnel
An OPTIMIST sees light at the end of the tunnel
A REALIST sees a freight train
The LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEER sees three idiots standing on the tracks

Country: USA | Posts: 2606 Go to Top of Page
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