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Author Previous Topic: Sliding door reefers? Topic Next Topic: Doom!... Despair!... and Ag-o-ny!
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deemery
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 03/14/2021 :  5:57:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CNE1899

Andre,

Shine on, shine on! Looks purty.

Scott



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWGE9Gi0bB0

dave


Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)

Country: USA | Posts: 8980 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 03/15/2021 :  07:44:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I was thinking along these lines: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U5m1JSwTEp8

Mike



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CNE1899
Engine Wiper

Supporting Member


Posted - 03/15/2021 :  09:11:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave,
Definitely Pink Floyd!
I wonder if Andre will put that on whilst shining his bright work?

Sorry Mike. Do like Procol Harem though.

Scott



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deemery
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 03/15/2021 :  10:21:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hohn

I was thinking along these lines: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U5m1JSwTEp8

Mike



Those British pop-focused announcers and dancers behind Prog Rock performances always made me laugh... :-) Similar introduction on Cream's live album.

dave


Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)

Country: USA | Posts: 8980 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Fireman

Posted - 03/15/2021 :  11:47:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Getting this thread back on track (punny, aren't I??? )...

So I've been researching about how many engines the C&P ought to have to keep its boom time freight moving on a 250 mile mainline along with several short branches.

The only comparable railroad (std gauge) in Colorado would be the Colorado Midland. The CM started construction in 1886 (several years later than my C&P), and by early 1888 was completed to New Castle (MP 233.5), where it stopped construction for a bit. I think sometime in 1889 the CM reached its final western terminal of Grand Junction, CO, giving it a total length of about 310 miles, plus branches/etc.

In 1888, the 233.5 mile main line of the CM, along with three major branches, were covered by a roster consisting of 38 engines in 1888. This equates to 1 engine per 6.14 miles.

By the time the CM reached Grand Jct (1889?), there was about 310 miles of main line. (Plus the aforementioned branches.) By this time (1889), the CM had added 6 more engines for a total of 44 engines. At 310 main line miles and 44 engines, that's 1 engine per 7.04 miles.

My C&P started construction in the late 1870s, and I'm modeling it shortly after it reached its western terminus in the early 1880s. This makes approximately a 2 (or 3) year span for the C&P to be completed, which roughly equates to the time it took the CM to do likewise.

The C&P's mainline length is about 250 miles. I am using the CM's main line miles-to-engine data to extrapolate the needed engines for the my C&P's imaginary line's branches that I have yet to define.

That so, using the 6.14 factor, the C&P would need 40.71 or 42, engines on its roster.

Using the 7.04 figure, the C&P would need 35.51, or 36, engines on its roster.

I think I'll split the difference and say that the C&P needs 45 engines to handle its tonnage/ traffic. To me, that's quite a roster, but most importantly, falls in line with the only comparable prototype: The CM.

Now, over the coming days/weeks, up next will be to start distilling the classes and wheel types, as well as the mfg'ers among the engines that will be found within that 45 engine figure.

However, the above is progress!

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 03/15/2021 11:49:52 PM

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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 03/16/2021 :  08:09:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Interesting calculations. That will require quite a roundhouse.


Country: USA | Posts: 7486 Go to Top of Page

deemery
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 03/16/2021 :  09:08:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Midland needed a lot of helper engines, so take that into consideration in your calculations.

dave


Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)

Country: USA | Posts: 8980 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Fireman

Posted - 03/16/2021 :  09:58:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Mike!

The above is the approach I've taken with my other themes over the decades, most notably, my diesel era Kansas City & Gulf theme.

As pertaining to the C&P:

Fortunately, I'll only be modeling a very small portion of the C&P: The switchbacks. That means that I will be modeling a termina, with its shops, nor an outlying sub divisions, or any of that jazz. Instead I'm only modeling a microcosm of the C&P. I may use Redcloud as a very small subdivision point, but I think it would make a better "helper station". (Such as the town of Cimmaron on the D&RG.) That way, all I need to concern myself with is the small stable of helpers assigned to Redcloud, as well as a small yard to hold the "shorts" (and returns) that will be delivered to the online towns of Buckhorn and Avalanche, along with the three mines on my modeled portion.

Now, there is a "modifier" to my current roster deductions that will play into the final number of engines on the C&P's roster: The C&P is a captive branch.

That is, I currently perceive the C&P as having no western connection, thus no "bridge/overhead" traffic. As a contrast, the CM (and the D&RG's "Transcontinental" status of the Marchall Pass line for a while) connected with the D&RG on its western end, thus the CM tapped into transconntinal overhead traffic. However, at this point, I perceive my C&P to be like the San Juan Extension of the D&RG or the Denver South Park & Pacific: A long branch of notable length with no western outlet. (Therefore, all freight either originates or terminates online and does not pass over it on its way to a connection, or connections.)

Now, I may create a fictional connection "out west" (such as a "Colorado, Utah & Western", or the "Utah & Eastern", etc)... but I hesitate to do so. I think in the past I explored this possibility, but didn't follow through with it. However, I might.

Fortunately, seeing as the C&P is my concoction, that decision rests solely with me.

Andre



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OK Hogger
Fireman

Posted - 03/16/2021 :  10:04:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave:

Had the C&P actually existed, and seeing my mental image of it on the map puts it railroading right into the gut of the San Juan's, it would have needed ridiculous numbers of helpers. Mentally, I know the actual towns that the C&P would have accessed, but I intentionally choose to not use those names for what I feel is an obvious reason: Doing so usually shatters the illusion because on all freelanced layouts I've ever seen, the imagineered representation of "Thisplace" doesn't look at ALL like the photos/scenes at the real town of "Thisplace".

So, the need for helpers? Got that covered!

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 03/16/2021 10:05:12 AM

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dave1905
Fireman



Posted - 03/16/2021 :  10:59:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit dave1905's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The W&N owned 29 locomotives and had 72 miles of main track, that's .41 locomotives per mile of track.

The CM had 38 engines and 233 miles of track, that's 0.16 engine per mile of track. The W&N had almost 3x the number of engines per mile. The 1916 ORER lists the CM with 335 miles of track and 65 engines, raising the engines per mile to 0.19. Still low.

Just as a comparison, the UP at its height, had close to 9000 engines and 30,000 miles of track which is 0.28 engines per mile of track, almost twice the value for the CM. The current UP has 7700 engines for 32,000 miles of track or 0.24 engines per mile of track.

As far as a stub ended railroad that doesn't connect to anything else, the EBT had 33 miles and 6 engines, about 0.18 engines per mile of track (very close to the CM).

While the CM number may seem high, its actually on the low end of the spectrum.

Another consideration is that the other road numbers I quoted were for "mature" roads that had their main routes completed, since your road is still under construction, it may have fewer engines until the road is finished and traffic matures.



By the way, while rooting around I found this 1889 Colorado Midland travelogue on Google Books: History of a Line
https://www.google.com/books/edition/History_of_a_Line_Colorado_Midland_Railw/Fj09AAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=colorado+midland&printsec=frontcover




Dave Husman

Iron Men and wooden cars
Visit my website : www.wnbranch.com

Country: USA | Posts: 1203 Go to Top of Page

CNE1899
Engine Wiper

Supporting Member


Posted - 03/16/2021 :  11:13:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Andre,
42 engines? You are going to suck ePay dry.;-)
Ah research, this is the part I love, almost as much as makin' 'em!

Dave,
Nice find.

Scott



Edited by - CNE1899 on 03/16/2021 11:14:10 AM

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OK Hogger
Fireman

Posted - 03/16/2021 :  7:23:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi all!

Wow, in my haste to get that typed this morning before leaving out for an all-day activity, I made a lot of typos and skipped some key words.

I typed this...

"That means that I will be modeling a termina,"

What I MEANT to type was this:

"That means that I will not be modeling a terminal," (Emphasis added to note goofs.)

Quite a difference.


Dave H:

Interesting. Looks like roads were all over the place in regards to the ratio of engines to miles.


Scott:

LOL! Of course, there's no way I'll attempt to model the entire roster. I'll pick and choose and model those that interest me. I'll be doing good to eventually have a dozen kit-bashed engines in service.

All fer now.

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 03/16/2021 7:24:47 PM

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OK Hogger
Fireman

Posted - 03/17/2021 :  10:16:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
SO...

I've put a "freeze" on larger expenditures (i.e. complete engines) to give my hobby funds a chance to recoup. I'll probably be looking at picking up parts and select junkers for scavenging and what have you.

Without intending to, once the last one arrives, I will have 7 MDC-based 2-8-0's with nickle silver wheels on hand:

* 5 RTR's of various vintage.
* 2 Kits

I might even be able to sacrifice a couple to equip two of my 2-6-0's with nickle silver wheels and smaller motor. (Giving me three 2-6-0's w/NS wheels.)

Of the RTR 2-8-0's, they all run nice except the Ath/Gen B&O w/DCC/Sound I last received. It has an issue of some sort. Placed on the track, it does nothing but sit quietly with its headlight intermittently flashing on/off. When I return to my model RR-ing interest, I'll try a complete reset on the decoder and see if that gets it back. If not, well, as a last resort I can pull the decoder and hard wire it for DC until I'm ready to install the decoder of my choice into it.

In the meantime, I've got a dozen vintage enduro bike enthusiasts descending on me (beginning Friday) from several parts of the US for a two-day ride out in the nearby mountains. OH, and I'm also hip deep in the sale of an RV we've inherited that's vying for my time, so I'll be busy!

All fer now!

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 03/17/2021 10:18:24 AM

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dave1905
Fireman



Posted - 03/17/2021 :  10:31:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit dave1905's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Remember that the roster of the CM was to run an entire 250 mile railroad, plus yards, plus local operation, plus passenger service, plus helpers.

You aren't modeling the entire C&P, you are just modeling a chunk of it so all you need are the engines to operate a chunk of it.

For example the P&R had lots of 68-80 inch driver 4-4-0 and 4-4-2 passenger engines. How many will I need for my 65 mile mile branch? Zero, they didn't operate on my branch.

Probably 25-30% of all the CM's (and by extension C&P's) engines were probably switch engines. If you aren't modeling a terminal, then that means you won't see 25-30% of the locomotive fleet. If all you are modeling is the road territory, then all you need to have on the layout roster are road engines.


Dave Husman

Iron Men and wooden cars
Visit my website : www.wnbranch.com

Edited by - dave1905 on 03/17/2021 10:32:16 AM

Country: USA | Posts: 1203 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Fireman

Posted - 03/17/2021 :  11:04:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yup. Agree with your guesstimates.

Alas, once the layout is functional, in order to get into operation the 4-4-0's will have to be used until they can be replaced with more appropriate power which takes a long time to build/paint/etc.

IF I don't get any of my other stuff DCC/Sound ready before the layout's functional, then I currently only have one MDC 2-8-0 that's DCC/Sound equipped. (Besides the dead one that's not functional at this point.) Assuming I get the dead one back online via a reset, that's only two helpers for the switchbacks, and the 4-4-0's will have to hold down the other parts of the mainline until they can be replaced.

However, 4-4-0's tackling heavy mountain grades is not without precedent, to wit, this pic of a supply train somewhere on the Stampede Pass line in Washington state:



Still, though, I will want to use "my" power that I've built for the C&P and not have to depend on the RTR 4-4-0's. The 4-4-0's were purchased several years ago to do exactly what they will end up doing: A quick way to have DCC/Sound equipped engines so I can get into operation, with the intent of being replaced at a later time.

Andre



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