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Author Previous Topic: The Coos Bay and Willamette Valley Topic Next Topic: N-Scale Accumates for Early Rail
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OK Hogger
Engine Wiper

Posted - 06/02/2016 :  8:48:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm BAAAaaack!

As threatened, here's an update concerning my first fledgling efforts at creating the Colorado & Pacific's first "kit-bashed" steam engine. At this point, I'm just experimenting with the basic components that I hope to make work for my first late-1870s/mid-1880s Mogul.

Here's a pic of the first combination (on the right):



Obviously, I'm starting with the venerable Pocher "Reno". It's sitting on a modified MDC/Roundhouse Old Timer 2-6-0 frame. The stack/cylinder center lines match up, so that works. (At this point, the stack is a Tyco "General" stack which may, or may not, be used.) The boiler will need just a bit of "massaging" (filing the inside edges) to allow it to snuggle down over the frame to sit lower. The "Reno" cab fits fine, should I decide to retain it. At this stage, there were a few more questions I must address:

* Can I use the Pocher cylinder/guides assembly (with new scratchbuilt main rods/side rods)?

* Can I get a Sagami 16x30 to fit inside the rear portion of the boiler? (Or do I need to go smaller?)

* Should I retain the MDC/Roundhouse 72:1 step gear ratio (using an NWSL gear set), or go with the NWSL 45:1 MDC gear replacement set? Experimentations/decisions/ ahead. I hope to answer those questions "soon".

Next, for gits n' shiggles, I experimented with what a 60" driver version would look like by using Mantua 60" drivers (that's what they measure using my dial calipers) installed into an MDC 63" driver Mogul frame. Here's the result:



Don't like it. This is supposed to be a "freight hog" and this looks like a passenger engine.

So, I then decided to piddle n' diddle some more with the 52" driver version, so I detached some more parts from the Pocher assemblies. (Wow, Pocher was way ahead of their time in devising complicated assembly procedures! Would make the "Ah so. We Chinee!" mfg folk proud!)

I massaged the boiler so it would snuggle down more on the frame and added a leading truck using a modified MDC lead truck assembly with a NWSL 26" flush end wheelset. I also modified the Pocher cylinder/pilot assembly and it fits fine. However, I think I would prefer the longer pilot version that came with the Pocher "Genoa" instead of the short version on the "Reno".

Anyway, here's what this combination looks like:



Ah... NOW we're getting somewhere! I like the overall lines and "stance".

What I don't like is the "bulk" that the MDC cover plate creates because it extends up PAST the front driver. To me this makes the frame look too "thick" between the front driver and cylinders. (Compare that area on the Jupiter in the pic above.)

So, I think I will be cutting off the MDC cover plate back toward the center axle. This ought to result in a "deep firebox" look which is definitely desired, but create more "space" under the frame for the front driver. (I will use a thin piece of brass screwed to the frame w/small a pair of bolts/screws to hold the front driver set in place.)

I then got the happy idea to try an MDC "Old Timer" cab on it to see how that looked. Here's a pic of that experiment:



Nope. Ain't happening. Looks like it's been "modernized" in the mid-late 1880s and I don't want to go there. I want it to look more "original". So, that attempt was a dud.

Now, from here I learned that a 16x30 Sagami round can will NOT fit the Pocher/MDC combination. It will fit the MDC frame (have done so in the past) but will NOT fit the Pocher boiler, even after using the dremel to remove the ridge inside the Pocher boiler that's up at the top. (Hits the boiler taper before the can motor is far enough forward for the MDC frame.)

So, this means I need to find an alternative motor. Thus far, it looks like the NWSL 12mm x 25mm is the most likely option at this point. That combination will require an adapter bushing for the shaft to retain use of the NWSL MDC regear sets available.

Which brings up this question:

Have any of you any experience re-gearing an MDC Old Timer from the stock 72:1 step gear to a NWSL 45:1 step gear? If so, what were the performance changes?

Okay... I think that's it on the updates for now.

Any input most welcomed!

Andre

Edited by - OK Hogger on 06/02/2016 9:32:19 PM

Country: | Posts: 375

OK Hogger
Engine Wiper

Posted - 06/02/2016 :  8:53:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well crapola.

I forgot to resize the pictures to 800 width and now I can't edit the above post to make the changes???

Sorry.

EDIT: Figured out a work-around! Easier on your eyes now... not so your brain.

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 06/02/2016 10:44:40 PM

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TwinZephyr
New Hire

Posted - 06/02/2016 :  9:53:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with you - the 52" driver version with the Pocher cab looks good.

As to the thick frame, one thing you might consider is making a full size cover plate from sheet brass. You can cut down the MDC cover plate and use it to clamp the brass cover plate in place (a cover plate sandwhich). This might reduce or even eliminate the need to drill new holes in the frame.



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k9wrangler
Engineer



Posted - 06/02/2016 :  9:59:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With the running gear in place and a black flat paint on the framework it won't hardly be noticeable except in such starkly lit shots as those above. A thinner cover plate might help, too.

Stand UP for AMERICA!!

Karl Scribner
Kentucky Southern Railway
Sunfield Township Michigan

Country: USA | Posts: 9341 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Engine Wiper

Posted - 06/02/2016 :  10:58:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TwinZephyr:

"Sandwich plate": Hadn't thought of that. Sure might be something I need to ponder. Lots of time to do so, though. I don't even have the layout out-building ready for occupancy! (Reminds me: Time to get in touch with that contractor to see if he's about finished with that other job.)

k9wrangler:

A thinner plate for sure it will help up front. And yes, even painting mutes the thickness better.

I do want the deep firebox look... from the center of the center driver back, but do not want the thick frame from the center driver forward.

We'll figure somethin' out!

Since I'm in a pictorial mood... might as well through up a shot of the growing C&P locomotive and rolling stock fleet. Except for three boxcars and that caboose, none the engines or cars were in my possession 2-3 weeks ago... and more is headed my! (Another engine kit, more rolling stock... sigh... books... this is getting out of hand!)

Andre




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OK Hogger
Engine Wiper

Posted - 06/03/2016 :  1:49:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
> DREAM MODE: ON <

Okay... so I made mention in my "New Here" thread that I have settled upon setting my upcoming TOC19 layout amid my long-time love affair with Colorado.

In a nutshell, I am going to freelance my "Colorado & Pacific" as being the first standard gauge line to attempt penetrating the silver/gold rich regions of Colorado.

Mentally (no actual "end terminus" will be modeled) I "see" in my mind that the C&P connects with a standard gauge line to the east, and possibly one to the west, along the way there could likely have been transfer points from narrow gauge to standard.

However, the MODELED portion of the C&P that I intend to create will only be a SMALL segment of the larger C&P theme. I will be modeling a helper district, with grades at both ends. (More can be explained/seen in my "New Here" thread.)

More will be said over time about how I hope to pull this off.

As for Colorado: Well... I just couldn't abandon my love and appreciation of the state and its historical railroads. Just gotta' have my interpretation of Colorado in my out building! Couldn't abandon it to return to Ozark modeling (which is my backyard) or try modeling the west coast (which has some mighty fine, and tempting, historical railroading and mountains in their own right).

So Colorado it is!

What follows below is a treatise on how appealing to my senses images of historical Colorado are to me, as well as the railroading therein.

First off: I LOVE the rugged nature of the DWELLINGS and the TOWNS of yore in Colorado. I also love MANY of the settings in which these towns resided. Log construction abounded, rough-hewn wood structures, unpainted structures, et al. And mixed amid these locations were hard-fisted and tough as nails settlers that had little choice but face the tremendous challenges of living in such a harsh environment.

I mean, who can NOT find such scenes as these fasinating?

Like these log structures that were plentiful throughout the Colorado mining regions:








Then there's the towns. Lordy, the towns. First, here's a look at the town of "Congress", which uprooted and moved over to the nearby rails that were built through shortly after this picture.



Then there's one of my favorites: Red Mountain Town. Here are some views of it:



Red Mountain Town with the railroad in view:



And my all-time favorite view of Red Mountain Town. What a scene!



Wow, the above photo is too good to leave so small. Here's a link to a larger scan of it so you can expand it and look it over:

http://www.vscalecreations.com/images/RedMtn.jpg

And the railroading! Wow! Here's a scene on the Silverton RR near Red Mountain. Change the curves and clearances somewhat, and you're looking at standard gauge!



Scenes like the above were all over the mining regions of Colorado, even many similar scenes found on the standard gauge Colorado Midland.

And lastly, a picture of contemporary Colorado. A scene that the wife and I have seen many, many times.



There are so many more reasons that I just couldn't leave my love of Colorado and its historical railroading, however, the above suffice.

I will say, that is was in Colorado that I learned that John Allen didn't really model "funky fantastic". They weren't quite as "funky fantastic" as you'd think. No, the wife and I have been in Jeeps on Engineer Mountain Trail on that narrow shelf of a road, and stopped to take-in scene of the tumbling waters hundreds of feet below us, and it was a scene right off John's "Gorre & Daphetid"! All the prototype scene needed was rails!

We've also ridden the Durango & Silverton, the Cumbres & Toltec, and there are "John Allen" scenes on those rides, too!

So, I'm very happy with my final decision to model Colorado as per my "Colorado & Pacific" concept. Looking forward to the day that actual construction can begin.

Wow... this one got long.

All fer now!

Andre



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railman28
Fireman



Posted - 06/03/2016 :  3:10:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Andre,
I think you would do better with a Mantua 0-6-0 frame. They made one with a larger space between the first and center driver. You could turn it around and have better driver spacing than you do with the MDC "old timer" frame. With DCC the gear ratio is less important so ether would be fine.

B



Country: USA | Posts: 4524 Go to Top of Page

deemery
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 06/03/2016 :  3:13:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Imagine Colorado railroading, and then add car ferry operations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaslo_and_Slocan_Railway (British Columbia, Canada.)

dave


Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)

Country: USA | Posts: 6950 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Engine Wiper

Posted - 06/03/2016 :  5:41:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Bob!

I just learned about the Mantua 0-6-0 today. Haven't even considered it before. I think you're talking about this one, right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-SANTA-FE-AT-SF-0-6-0-SADDLE-TANK-SWITCHER-Locomotive-Mantua-New-393001-/381341769198?hash=item58c9bd9dee:g:PCwAAOSw1DtXLKVi

For now, I'm going to stay with the MDC frame for this first one. I intend to kit-bash more engines based on the AHM/Pocher 4-4-0 boiler and cab, so I will be taking a serious look at the Mantua 0-6-0 for same.

However, for gits n' shiggles, I did mount the AHM/Pocher boiler/cab onto a different 2-6-0 frame I have, which from was kit bashed from the MDC 0-6-0. I think I like the driver spacing better, but "as is" the stack center-line doesn't match up with the cylinder center-line. That's somewhat of a "no-no" in making believable steam engine kit bash. Making it line up will result in having to remove the ornate builders plate that sits between the drivers from the boiler, which I'm reluctant to do so at this time.

TIME OUT! Doorbell... it's the USPS with goodies!!

Okay... back. Cool! Just received 4 more pieces of rolling stock for the C&P theme (2 34' boxcars, 1 34' flat w/gondola sideboards, 1 32' flat) and my John White "The American Railroad Freight Car" book! Bountiful day!

Now... where was I? Oh yes the Mogul project.

Here's a picture of it on the above mentioned alternate MDC 2-6-0 from an 0-6-0 frame:



So, for now, I'll leave it be with the first MDC 2-6-0 frame under it. Besides, I need to concentrate my dollar expenditures on amassing needed rolling stock. (But I can't seem to stop stock piling some engine projects too!)

Dave:

Ah yes, the Kaslo & Slocan! Learned about that neat little line some time ago. Had some beautiful scenery it ran through!

All fer now!

Andre




Edited by - OK Hogger on 06/03/2016 5:44:06 PM

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hminky
Fireman



Posted - 06/03/2016 :  6:32:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit hminky's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Back in 2005 I did this conversion:



Required relocating the idler gear by eyeballing the location:





Never did write it up for the website.

Locomotive is similar to Delaware, Lackawanna and Western consolidations.

Harold



Edited by - hminky on 06/03/2016 6:35:05 PM

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railman28
Fireman



Posted - 06/03/2016 :  7:04:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OK Hogger

Hi Bob!

I just learned about the Mantua 0-6-0 today. Haven't even considered it before. I think you're talking about this one, right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-SANTA-FE-AT-SF-0-6-0-SADDLE-TANK-SWITCHER-Locomotive-Mantua-New-393001-/381341769198?hash=item58c9bd9dee:g:PCwAAOSw1DtXLKVi

Andre





Yes it is



Country: USA | Posts: 4524 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Engine Wiper

Posted - 06/03/2016 :  7:22:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Harold!

Thanks for stopping by.

Husky looking little AHM/Pocher Consol 'ya got there.

How did that MDC motor perform? I just recently received a NIB MDC 2-8-0 and it has that motor in it. Is the step gear still 72:1 in those versions, or reduced to 45:1? The worm gear looks larger in diameter than I remember on the long-gone stock motors I had.

My old standby, the Sagami 16x30 round can, isn't the hot ticket for AHM/Pocher rebuilds (to big in diameter). I'm getting ready to order a motor or two from NWSL to experiment with. I'm looking at NWSL's 16x30 flat can. The flat sides are only 12mm in width, so that shouldn't be a problem inside the AHM/Pocher boiler. The 16mm height might be, though. Other option could be 12x20 flat can (flats 10mm wide), yet that small engine still peaks at only 12,000 RPM.

Are you still into HO and tinkering with repowers/rebuilds? If so, what are your interests at this point?

EDIT: Forgot to ask: Who makes that pilot? How did you mount it?

All fer now.

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 06/03/2016 7:24:38 PM

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OK Hogger
Engine Wiper

Posted - 06/03/2016 :  7:23:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bob:

Figured it was, but thought I'd check.

Thanks!

Andre



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hminky
Fireman



Posted - 06/03/2016 :  7:29:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit hminky's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The MDC motor in the picture performs great.

That is the stock gearing. The pilot is from Selley and just lying there for the picture.

Right now am playing with Z-scale.

Harold



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railman28
Fireman



Posted - 06/03/2016 :  7:35:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OK Hogger

Hi Bob!

I just learned about the Mantua 0-6-0 today. Haven't even considered it before. I think you're talking about this one, right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-SANTA-FE-AT-SF-0-6-0-SADDLE-TANK-SWITCHER-Locomotive-Mantua-New-393001-/381341769198?hash=item58c9bd9dee:g:PCwAAOSw1DtXLKVi

Andre





Yes it is



Country: USA | Posts: 4524 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Engine Wiper

Posted - 06/03/2016 :  8:19:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the reply, Harold!

Just put some power leads to the one included in the 2-8-0 I recently purchased and I was impressed with its slow speed. It was also quiet at higher RPM. If it has sufficient torque... may not be any need in re-powering the MDC kits I'll be purchasing that (hopefully) will include these little motors!

Bob:

Thanks for confirming again that is indeed the locomotive you referenced. Nice to be twice sure!



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