Railroad Line Forums - The Depot (at Carendt)
Railroad Line Forums
Username:
Password:
Save Password


Register
Forgot Password?
  Home   Forums   Events Calendar   Sponsors   Support the RRLine   Guestbook   FAQ     Register
Active Topics | Active Polls | Resources | Members | Online Users | Live Chat | Avatar Legend | Search | Statistics
Photo Album | File Lister | File Library
[ Active Members: 8 | Anonymous Members: 0 | Guests: 91 ]  [ Total: 99 ]  [ Newest Member: RocknTommy ]
 All Forums
 Model Railroad Forums
 Micro & Mini Layouts
 The Depot (at Carendt)
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic |   New Poll New Poll |   Reply to Topic | 
Author Previous Topic: The Town Topic Next Topic: Beginn of a german Railroad Time 1960
Page: of 39

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 03/01/2016 :  7:45:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The problem is that I'm continually messing around with the track - pulling rails, painting, reworking etc. The spikes don't hold the track rock solid and the joints are continually breaking as a result. On the next layout I'm going to find a way to fix the rails firmly to the ties without using spikes as well as run a BUS underneath each track.

http://thedepotonline.com/

Country: USA | Posts: 435 Go to Top of Page

Frank Palmer
Fireman



Posted - 03/08/2016 :  8:11:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frank Palmer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Kumar I did the bus thing on my Wreckerís Reef and itís very reliable. I dropped a pair of wires for each length of track including the leads into the switch. I did that for each section between switches.

Frank

Edited by - Frank Palmer on 03/08/2016 8:13:35 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 5492 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 03/08/2016 :  8:36:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks Frank. Glad to hear it. I'm definitely starting again. This issue has been ongoing since I first installed the electrics and I am sure using a bus will solve many of my problems.

http://thedepotonline.com/

Country: USA | Posts: 435 Go to Top of Page

Frank Palmer
Fireman



Posted - 03/10/2016 :  4:10:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frank Palmer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I used a Dermal with a thin cutting disk and cut gaps in the rail at staggered locations after the switch.

Frank

Country: USA | Posts: 5492 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 03/11/2016 :  01:38:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Palmer

I used a Dermal with a thin cutting disk and cut gaps in the rail at staggered locations after the switch.



TY! I've made a note. I'm stripping out all the wiring this weekend and fitting the bus. Then I'll take it step by step over the next few weeks.


http://thedepotonline.com/

Country: USA | Posts: 435 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 03/12/2016 :  1:20:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
So here goes.

I'm starting the electrics rebuild from scratch. I'm still deciding how far to take things. I'm giving strong consideration into rebuilding the frogs on each turnout while I do this project but for now I've started by ripping out most of the wiring. I've left the point motors in place but removed the wiring from them.



The goal of the project will be to fit a much more robust electrical system. The question is: how far do I go? Several areas need attention:
1. I need a new control panel with nice track diagram and turnout switches built-in. Also it has to be removable so that I can store it when the layout is not being operated.
2. I need to fit a bus (a wire beneath the tracks) that will convey power to all the rails so that I don't have to use rail joiners which are breaking constantly (even though they are soldered).
3. Each point motor needs to be tested. I'm not sure they are all working properly.
And maybe
4. Rebuild the frogs and points. Trains are sometime having problems getting over turnouts. I may rebuild just the first one to see how it goes - if it goes well then I can replace all the others.

One of the challenges is that I'm working on a 'finished' layout so I have to be careful. But as the work can be done on my workbench I can move it around easily.

So for this weekend I'm going to fit the bus and then design the control panel.

Example control panels to give me inspiration (https://www.google.com/search?q=model+railroad+control+panel&source=lnms&tbm=isch):


The frog of the points may get rebuilt - although I actually mean the frog plus the wing rails, I have some frog kits that I might try to assemble and install:


The wing rails are cut too short.


It would be nice to get rid of all the spikes too. Close up they are very conspicuous and I now regret doing it that way.





http://thedepotonline.com/

Edited by - kumard on 03/13/2016 2:03:16 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 435 Go to Top of Page

rca2
Engine Wiper

Posted - 03/12/2016 :  2:54:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kumard: I have only a little experience from long ago, but I have a difficult time believing that a bus will make a significant electrical difference on such short runs. The advantages you would get from a bus/feeders is an opportunity to have neater wiring and the cosmetic advantage of having a smaller wire soldered to the rails.

If you attach the feeder to the bottom of the rails or to the side of the rail facing the backdrop, the size of the feeder wire is not so critical.

My thinking is that "robustness" or reliability of the wiring would come from having as few connections as possible. Each connection is a possible failure point and a possible increase to resistance. Assuming you use adequate gauge wire, the reliability of the wiring is going to depend on the number, type, and quality of the connections. Not on using a bus.

In fact if the bus design introduces significantly more connections, the risk of failure is increased. I am not saying buses are inherently bad, just that you should keep the wiring as direct and simple as practical. You should also consider the type of connections you use. Bob.


Modeling Arizona Eastern Railroad, Hayden Junction (1920), in On30

Edited by - rca2 on 03/12/2016 4:22:20 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 463 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 03/12/2016 :  4:55:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Bob.

I have only a little experience from long ago, but I have a difficult time believing that a bus will make a significant electrical difference on such short runs. >> Listening!

The advantages you would get from a bus/feeders is an opportunity to have neater wiring and the cosmetic advantage of having a smaller wire soldered to the rails. >> That's a good enough reason for me. Looking at complicated wiring is turning me into a nervous wreck. I now have great admiration for any modeler able to tackle the wiring a layout larger than mine.

If you attach the feeder to the bottom of the rails or to the side of the rail facing the backdrop, the size of the feeder wire is not so critical. >> Size is not important but there are lot of breaks that are presently being crossed by soldered rails which are breaking constantly. The bus is needed to get the power across these breaks without using rail joiners.

My thinking is that "robustness" or reliability of the wiring would come from having as few connections as possible. Each connection is a possible failure point and a possible increase to resistance. Assuming you use adequate gauge wire, the reliability of the wiring is going to depend on the number, type, and quality of the connections. Not on using a bus. >> You are right and I'm going have to try to minimize the number of joins from bus to rail as well as re-lay track sections with a single rail instead of two or three so that I only send current through to that one rail.

In fact if the bus design introduces significantly more connections, the risk of failure is increased. I am not saying buses are inherently bad, just that you should keep the wiring as direct and simple as practical. You should also consider the type of connections you use. >> In theory you are correct - more connections, more potential for problems. However it will still be an improvement on the present situation. I'll keep your thoughts on the matter in mind as I run through this project and try to simplify things as much as possible to avoid future potential problems.

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated. Definitely food for thought.

Trouble lies beneath the ground. The power is out and all is at a standstill. However the local power company have been called in and will soon get this branch line back on its feet/rails/wheels.


http://thedepotonline.com/

Edited by - kumard on 03/12/2016 5:09:01 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 435 Go to Top of Page

Frank Palmer
Fireman



Posted - 03/12/2016 :  7:45:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frank Palmer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
In a word, ambitious.

Take your time and think it through.


Frank

Country: USA | Posts: 5492 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 03/14/2016 :  7:41:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks Frank.

Yes I'm treading very careful through it step by step.



http://thedepotonline.com/

Country: USA | Posts: 435 Go to Top of Page

Guff
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 03/16/2016 :  7:33:11 PM  Show Profile  Send Guff an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Kumard,
This is my first visit to your posting. Very Impressive!!!
The attention you provided to achieve realism is outstanding. The detail in the track work blew me away.
Dave


David Guffey

Country: USA | Posts: 1790 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 03/16/2016 :  8:05:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guff

Kumard,
This is my first visit to your posting. Very Impressive!!!
The attention you provided to achieve realism is outstanding. The detail in the track work blew me away.
Dave



Thanks Dave,

I really wanted to make the track work and track bed as realistic as possible for a little used branch line such as this. I figured I got about halfway there. I'm in the middle of rewiring right now and may replace the frogs which will improve things somewhat. However I think I will not be using spikes on the next layout (The Town http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=46675) since they have caused more problems than solved.

Keep watching and thanks for your comment.


http://thedepotonline.com/

Edited by - kumard on 03/16/2016 9:13:47 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 435 Go to Top of Page

jbvb
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 03/19/2016 :  12:30:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit jbvb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Reading back about your track & power issues, two thoughts re: rail joiners.
First, take a look at the etched Nickel Silver joint bars from Proto 87: http://www.proto87.com/product1904.html
I think they could be sweat-soldered to the web of your rails where un-reinforced butt-soldering has failed.
I expect, if well soldered, they'd have 80-90% of the strength of a conventional rail joiner.

Second, if you need to join rails where you don't think a joint bar wouldn't be appropriate, consider that old,
light rail frequently tended to get cut and spliced into shorter than 39' lengths as the section gang used what
was on hand to keep the line operable. If you still don't want a joint bar in a location, make a splice plate
the width of the bottom of the rail out of .010 or .015 brass and solder it underneath out of sight.



Country: USA | Posts: 6085 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 03/21/2016 :  11:59:08 AM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
James >> First, take a look at the etched Nickel Silver joint bars from Proto 87: http://www.proto87.com/product1904.html I think they could be sweat-soldered to the web of your rails where un-reinforced butt-soldering has failed. I expect, if well soldered, they'd have 80-90% of the strength of a conventional rail joiner. >> I'll take a look at them as method to move power but I have to say that the bus method ended up being very simple to implement and a rock solid way of getting power to unconnected rails. By the way, I often visit that Proto87 site and will be taking another look around before I start track-laying for The Town.

>> Second, if you need to join rails where you don't think a joint bar wouldn't be appropriate, consider that old, light rail frequently tended to get cut and spliced into shorter than 39' lengths as the section gang used what was on hand to keep the line operable. If you still don't want a joint bar in a location, make a splice plate the width of the bottom of the rail out of .010 or .015 brass and solder it underneath out of sight. >> Now that's a good idea. I had not thought of putting a splice plate at the bottom of the rail. My only concern might be about accessing it for maintenance and its reliability but I will definitely add it to my box of tricks.

A quiet afternoon at The Depot. The daily freight arrives in about two hours.



http://thedepotonline.com/

Edited by - kumard on 03/21/2016 2:11:23 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 435 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 03/22/2016 :  11:59:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Quick update on the bus project. The first part went well. I ran a 16 gauge wire bus the length of the layout and then I put a razor through all the soldered joints and isolated all the individual rails. If a track already had connections then I ran them to the bus. If a track was missing a connection to the power then I dropped wires from the rail through the board to the bus. All very simple. I tested each new connection with my trusty power meter thingy. I've had it for ages but never knew how to work it. However a quick YouTube video later I was up to speed and was able to test each track to make sure they were getting power. All works great. I relaid rails as a single piece where necessary.



I was going to loop the bus back but since the layout is so narrow there was no point: connections from each side easily reached the single bus.


The hardest part was assembling all the tools and then having to flip the layout up and down as I connected the wire and then tested the track.


Overall it was a simple project. I took about two hours. Next on my rewiring list is the frog rebuilding and wiring and then the new control box. More on that next week.



A quick view of the layout from a rarely seen angle. One day I would like to put the backdrop on the other side and take pictures from this angle. I actually have a small photography backdrop created from off-cuts of the original backdrop. Maybe later this year.




http://thedepotonline.com/

Edited by - kumard on 03/22/2016 1:09:19 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 435 Go to Top of Page
Page: of 39 Previous Topic: The Town Topic Next Topic: Beginn of a german Railroad Time 1960  
 New Topic |   New Poll New Poll |   Reply to Topic | 
Previous Page | Next Page
Jump To:
Railroad Line Forums © 2000-19 Railroad Line Co. Go To Top Of Page
Steam was generated in 0.86 seconds. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000