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TRAINS1941
Engineer

Premium Member


Posted - 04/19/2017 :  11:47:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kris I think it would melt the hell out of it.

I've used Xylene before. its what Dave Revelia used with powders to do his wood.

God that stuff is nasty I don't know about the Klean Strip but I'd use it outside I did when I used it.

Hope that helps.


Jerry

"And in the end, it’s not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." A. Lincoln

Country: USA | Posts: 11833 Go to Top of Page

Pennman
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 04/19/2017 :  5:39:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kris,
A quick look at the back of the Xylene can says it may soften some plastics and may harm some plastic surfaces.
It also says not to use the product as a general cleaner.
So, my question to anyone is, is styrene considered a plastic? I don't model with styrene so I don't really know.
Rich



Country: USA | Posts: 4224 Go to Top of Page

hon3_rr
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 04/20/2017 :  1:12:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys for the feedback. Jerry, you are probably correct in your (I'm Melting) comment.

**IF** I recall my chemistry from college correctly, 'styrene' and 'polystyrene' are totally different animals. 'Styrene' is a natural substance found in the petrol-chemical industry. It is also found in trace amounts in some fruits like peaches, grains like oats & wheat, coffee beans and even in some meat. So we have been eating the stuff for generations. And for those who may be alarmed, there **IS NO** cancer risk.

'Polystyrene' is a plastic made from polymerized styrene. The common modeling medium often called "styrene" is actually polystyrene. Evergreen Scale Models produces polystyrene plastic shapes, strips, and sheet materials.

As far as I know, polystyrene is considered a plastic. It does have the disadvantage of organic compounds can attack the material, thus one of the reasons for the success of acrylic paints used to color the material. As those who have worked with polystyrene and acrylic paint know, the polystyrene and water in acrylic paints do not play well together. Thus the need to somehow prep the material for painting with acrylics. And that brings us back to my question if one can possibly use Klean Strip on the polystyrene material used in modeling.


-- KP --
Life is to short to build all of the models I want to.

Edited by - hon3_rr on 04/20/2017 1:19:12 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 7212 Go to Top of Page

David Clark
Fireman



Posted - 04/20/2017 :  1:34:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been modelling with "styrene" for decades. Mostly with scale armour and sometimes buildings but I have never had an issue painting it. I always give it a primer coat of Games Workshop White (or Black if it was going to be dark colours) because I worked for the company. A lot of the cost-minded individuals would use Krylon spray but the pigmentation is a little coarser for delicate miniatures. There are other manufacturers out there now like Army Painter but I don't know what the cost is like in comparison. The spray doesn't need to be heavy, or even 100% coverage, just enough to give some tooth for the paint to adhere to.
Cheers,
Dave



Country: Canada | Posts: 1239 Go to Top of Page

hon3_rr
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 04/20/2017 :  3:26:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On the modeling project. Just as a head's-up, work has continued at the stamp mill. There have been additional additions to the roof including more stacks, the water-wheel house and some additional stone work. The work will continue in the background, but lots of notes are being made. When I complete the bridge, I'll return to the stamp mill and detail the additional construction. I'm not going to add the information here so as to keep continuity with the bridge build.

Attach the N-B-W's to the Stringers:
Below is another recycled technique which I have described in another build.

Tools & Technique: Obtaining Flat Bottomed N-B-W Castings

The modeling tip for this entry is something I discovered by accident. For years I have been trying to get really flat bottoms on the N-B-W’s to avoid having to punch or drill holes to get the castings to lay flat against the adjoining surface. I have tried to cut them off the sprue pin with an x-acto, single edge razor or various brands of styrene nippers made for the removal of parts from the sprue. I always, no matter what, ended up with a very small ‘nub’ on the bottom of the N-B-W.

I discovered that you can pull the N-B-W casting off the top of the sprue pin by holding a pair of nippers under the N-B-W casting, with the jaws almost closed so as to catch the bottom of the casting. By making a pulling or a quick pull the casting will come off the pin with a totally flat bottom. I have done this repeatedly with Grandt #5093 N-B-W castings, which have a HO scale 5 ¼ inch washer, and each casting had a totally flat bottom.

I have not tried this on smaller or larger N-B-W castings, but I suspect that it will work for sure on smaller castings.

Next is to attach the N-B-W's to the stringers. Due to the issue of not knowing the exact stringer orientation within the model, I chose to attach N-B-W's to both sides of the stringers.

1) We first need to mark the stringers for where the N-B-W's will sit. This is done by lying a single stringer next to the kit plans and marking as closely as possible the N-B-W locations. The marking tool was a#2 pencil, sharp tip on the lead. The lead tip was placed on the stringer and then twisted using a light pressure. This will make an imprint and mark the wood at the location.
2) The use of a glass plate with a 9-inch length (actual) of 1/4-inch square stripwood attached to the glass surface. I used two drafting triangles to locate and place the marks on the wood stringers. The first triangle is used to keep all of the stringers in register. The second triangle is used to align and mark all of the locations on the ganged or bunched stringers. I used the earlier marked stringer as the guide to locate the N-B-W locations on the stringers. Both sides of the stringers were marked. The marks will have a small dimple at the N-B-W location. This may be enough of a dimple to seat the N-B-W casting flat on the stringer surface. However, I opted to take an extra step to ensure that the N_B-W's sit squarely on the wood surface.


Set-up to Mark Stringer with N-B-W Locations.

3) Using an old throwing dart tip metal point, make the N-B-W dimple locations a bit deeper and larger by inserting the dart tip and twisting with a light pressure.




Dimple Marking Set-up

continued post 4/21/2017

4) Remove only two or three N-B-W's from the casting sprue at a 'glue session'. Since the N-B-W's are removed from the sprue individually, they are small and easy to lose. By removing only a couple of castings at a time you will prevent a major casting loss when you sneeze or cough. (It's a Murphy Law thing...)

5) Place a small amount of regular or thin ACC on a disposable item or bottom of a shot glass. Using x-fine angle pointed tweezers http://www.precisionproducts.us/Angular_PrecisionTweezers_41_2_6_I921_WT6_or_p/i921.htm grasp the casting by the bolt. Touch the casting underside to the surface of the ACC. Place the casting into position on the locating dimple. It may be necessary to rotate the casting to secure a flat seating of the N-B-W on the wood surface. Allow to dry.



Do Not Use Tweezer in this Orientation to Pick-up N-B-W Casting.


Use the 'Flat' Angle of Tweezer to Assist in Pick-up of Casting.

A couple of additional technique tips:
1a) Do not use the 'point' angle of the tweezers to pick-up the N-B-W casting. Use the 'flat' angle of the tweezers to pick-up, hold and place the casting. See above pictures as reference.
2b) You will feel the N-B-W casting 'drop/snap' into place when the position of the casting is correct. It may take a few castings to get the feel of this through the tweezers, but once identified, it is like riding a bike.
3c) Work on a soft rag with a tight weave, like a tee-shirt for process of adding N-B-W's to the stringers. (Do not use a loop weave material like a towel or sock.) With the rag you will protect the castings placed on the underside of the stringer as you apply castings to the opposite side. The rag will also make it easier to locate a casting should you drop it during the placement operation.

Well, that's it for now. Next up will be more work on the stringers and ties.


-- KP --
Life is to short to build all of the models I want to.

Edited by - hon3_rr on 04/25/2017 2:37:47 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 7212 Go to Top of Page

Pennman
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 04/20/2017 :  3:59:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kris,
Once again, great lengthy tutorial. Thanks for the great tip on using the dart end for making a dimple for placement of NBW's, I never thought of that. It would make for a sure fit.
Rich



Country: USA | Posts: 4224 Go to Top of Page

hon3_rr
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 04/25/2017 :  2:31:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As always, thanks to all who dropped by to see the last update. Hoping that the tweezers tip will be helpful.

For the newer folks let’s start off with some bench setup basics.

I work on a glass plate which provides a very flat surface. As I mostly model in HO scale, I have found that 18 inch x 12 inch glass plates work well. I do not yet know how this glass plate size will translate into O scale full time modeling. I do have a 34x24 inch table top glass plate on which I usually place the smaller plates and I use the larger glass top for most O-scale projects. For those wanting to use glass plates, I do suggest something thicker than 1/4 inch and with a ‘pencil’ bevel. This will also allow you to use a T-square to line up various objects during the build as well as making it more comfortable to lay your arms/wrist across the edges of the glass. Tell the glass cutter that it is important to be as square as possible as the purpose is for a ‘surface plate for precise model building’. Those glass cutting guys appear to enjoy the challenge of cutting/grinding it as square as possible if they have a good reason. For those really interested, after about 30 years of modeling I have 3 smaller plates in use. They last about 5 years each.

I make at least 3 copies of each of the plans. As most kit plans are usually printed using a reasonable quality printing process, it is important to try to get as high of quality copy as possible. Do not run the plans through the copy machine at your local Kinko’s. Place each plan page on the copy bed and then copy. This will help avoid paper stretch effects.

Prior to making copies, draw a vertical and horizontal line on the plans using a scale ruler. Measure the lines at the copy dealer with the scale ruler to make sure that there is no copy error. If you have some error, try to correct it as much as possible. This is why I go to a Kinko’s or other large copy shop, they can help resolve the distortion errors or get you on a better machine.

Multiple plan copies you say… why??

Tools & Technique: Attaching Plans to Surface Plate.
Use double sided scotch tape (3/4 inch) to attach the deck and side view plans to the glass plate.
• Attach the tape to the backside of the plans. Tape all edges to within about ¼ inch of the plan sheet edge. Add a couple of tape strips to the middle of the plan sheet.
• Roll the plans onto the glass plate from one edge of the glass plate to the other edge keeping the plans as fully taunt as possible in both the vertical and horizontal planes. Try to use a T-Square if possible in this process using one of the long lines in both vertical and horizontal planes on the plans to set the plan sheet on the plate as square as possible.
• Attach double sided tape on all 4 edges (the entire length of the plan sheet) to within about ¼ inch of the edge.
• Cover the face of the plans with a high quality clear packing tape, 2 or 3 inch wide tape. Use high quality tape as the cheaper tape will allow wood and white glue to stick to the tape, making removal of the model components difficult. This is not the case with a higher quality packing tape. The other option is to cover the plan sheet with wax paper, keeping the wax paper as taunt as possible.
• Trim the wax paper to extend about ½ inch past the plan sheet on all sides. Use an X-acto or single edge razor blade for this process in conjunction with a T-square or long ruler.
• Using Packing Scotch Tape (2 inch wide) or some other wide tape, tape the wax paper to the glass plate. I overlap the wax paper by about 1 inch on all sides. If needed, wrap the tape around the edges of the glass plate.
• You can put a piece of graph paper on the back side of the plate to assist in lining up parts via rulers and the T-square. I use ‘Clearprint’ No. 1000HP-10 Fade-Out design and sketch vellum in 11 in x 17 in sheets. I also use Canson 8/8 Cross Section, again 11 in x 17 in sheets. These products provide about 8 squares to the inch.

During the course of the build, a new plan sheet may need to be mounted and the glass plate already has a plan mounted. You will destroy the plan sheet removing it from the glass plate, thus the multiple copies. A lot of modelers keep their original plans and only work on copies.

Use Goof-Off to assist in removing the tape residue from the glass plates between plan sheet mountings. Goof-Off can be found at your local hardware store.

You probably know these, but always:
•Use the most light possible, the more natural light the better. This will really help out your modeling since one of the biggest tricks is to use magnification whenever you are building.
•Model with plenty of ventilation.
•Read the instructions fully prior to starting any kit. (Some of the components in the diorama will be kits or modified kits.)
•Replace all razor blades with new blades frequently.
•Remember safety and think of the little ones who may get into the paint or the cat that will jump up on the workbench only to find an exposed razor blade.

I might also note that prior to attaching the plans, I verified that two of the stringers would be under the rail using my HOn3 NMRA standards gauge.


-- KP --
Life is to short to build all of the models I want to.

Edited by - hon3_rr on 04/25/2017 3:23:54 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 7212 Go to Top of Page

railman28
Fireman



Posted - 04/25/2017 :  3:14:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I look foward to trying the tweezers/N-B-W tip.

It's only make-believe

Country: USA | Posts: 5326 Go to Top of Page

pingjockey
New Hire

Posted - 04/25/2017 :  5:14:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the tutorial, Kris. As I was reading, I wondered if having the copies laminated instead of using Packing Tape would work. Or maybe inserting your copies into vinyl sheet protectors. They are available up to 11"x17".



Larry

~=~=~=~=~
We had too much time a while ago, but not enough time now. - Chris Ledoux

Country: USA | Posts: 35 Go to Top of Page

hon3_rr
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 04/27/2017 :  4:02:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Bob and all who took time to look into the last post.

Larry, You're generally on the right track with your thinking from my experience. I actually tried the vinyl sheet protector some time ago, and that lasted for about 1/3rd of the project. There are multiple issues with the vinyl sheet protector which I ran into.
1) The drawing sheet moved inside the protector making it difficult to keep the project components in alignment.
2) I found that I had issues with the vinyl stretching and getting parts out of alignment as well as sometimes parts would come untacked from the vinyl. Just a whole series of issues presented by the vinyl stretching.
3) I found that the knife blade was making small cuts and holes in the vinyl. This became a major issue when washes like A-I or Silverwood were applied as the wash would seep under the vinyl and stain/curl the paper drawing. In addition, sometimes those small cuts in the vinyl would interfere with the tacking of adjoining component parts.
4) I had problems keeping the overall sheet protector in place on the desk as it wanted to shift when sticking to my hand, wrist or forearm.
5) I did not experience the issue, but be aware that some paints and adhesives will attack the vinyl. Because of this, you have to be careful in the selection of mediums used in the construction & coloring processes.

The lamination idea would be a better solution, but you would still need to affix the sheet to a solid surface for ease of use. The drawings actually are somewhat laminated by the packing tape as it extends over the entire sheet with the use of 3 or 4 tape strips, and actually is encased by the tape around the edges of the paper by the tape extending past the paper edges. The use of a higher quality and thicker packing tape, like a 3 mil thickness will actually work really well. I tend to use 3M Heavy Duty. https://www.amazon.com/Scotch-Shipping-Packaging-6-Rolls-3850-6/dp/B000087KUA/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_229_bs_t_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=N4KS8PRZ9FBF9CM2ENS2 The tape also avoids the issues with cuts and holes which I experienced with the vinyl protective sheet cover and waxed paper. I now almost exclusively use the tape to attach my drawings to glass surface plates. I have found that the use of double sided tape helps keep the drawings properly aligned and the paper taut while applying the packing tape covering.

OK... so let's start this build.

Mount the Stringers on the Drawing:
1) Spot glue the stringers into place over the drawing sheet. I used white glue to apply about four small spots of glue on each stringer. I used a drafting triangle aligned with the wood guide to keep all stringer ends in alignment. The 1/4-inch square wood guide was aligned to the track centerline during the mounting of the drawing to the surface plate.
2) I used some weights to hold the stringers in place while the glue tacks dried.


Stringers Tack Glued to Drawing.


-- KP --
Life is to short to build all of the models I want to.

Country: USA | Posts: 7212 Go to Top of Page

hon3_rr
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 05/01/2017 :  8:18:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mount Ties to Stringers:

Let's get some ties down, and in the process discuss a couple of modeling technique items.

In the picture below I have started to mount the ties to the stringers. Note that I'm not using the drawing template, but I'm using other objects to space the ties, but the stripwood mounted to the glass plate as a guide to keep the ties 'even' across the stringers.

I have noted that the use of a Alvin drafting triangle has about the correct thickness as what is needed between the ties. One could also use a North West Shortline angle guide as a spacer. For more exact spacing, or wider spacing, one could use small rectangles of Strathmore board or styrene. I have also laminated a few business cards together to create a spacer of specific width.

The reason for the use of a spacer is to keep the ties evenly spaced to the eye. Exact dead on spacing is not required, but keep the tie deck visually appealing.

The use of a plastic spacer has the advantage of being stiff enough with sharp edges which can be used to scrap/wipe away any excess adhesive which may weep out from under the tie as it is mounted to the stringers. You can also quickly remove the adhesive from the plastic by wiping the plastic spacer with a damp cloth. This will allow you to keep your work free of unsightly glue globs. If you use a paper based spacer, you will need to replace the spacer every 20 ties or so as the corners will curl, losing the sharp edges to wipe away the excess glue and will tend to leave glue residue behind.

Another 'visual' trick I use is to place the first few ties at each end of the stringers freehand. These few ties are very important in keeping the ties at a 90 degree angle to the stringers, but just a tiny bit of off-set in the tie overhang will add a very subtle but 'worn' look to the bridge. It is important to keep the two endmost ties even however, and these are used to act as stops against the stripwood guide during the placement of the bulk of the ties. I usually do about 4 or 5 ties on each end of the bridge freehand to instill the 'worn' look.

Work from each end of the bridge, placing ties and rotate between the two different bridge ends until the ties meet just off center. Split the difference in space in the last tie or two to obtain the best visual effect.

1) Attach the two end stringers using a drafting triangle or square to keep the ties at 90 degrees. Make sure the tie overhang is equal on both sides of the outside stringers and the tie is flush with the stringers ends. Allow to dry.
2) With the stringer frames still spot glued to the deck template drawing, place 4 to 6 more ties on each bridge end using the template as a guide. Make sure to use the 'spacer' tool to keep all the ties at equal distance. (See next step for hint on using spacer tool.) Eyeball the tie overhang on the outside stringers. Use a drafting triangle or square to keep the ties at 90 degrees to the stringers. Place the ties under weight as the tie adhesive dries.
3) I place the tie spacing tool against a mounted tie, draw a light pencil mark with a sharp lead across each of the stringer tops using the spacer tool as a guide. I then remove the spacer tool. Use a toothpick with a small bit of glue on the end, and place a bit of glue on the outside edge of the pencil mark. (Outside edge is the side opposite of the mounted tie.) Hold the spacer tool against the mounted tie and then place the new tie to be mounted. After making sure the newly placed tie is placed correctly, remove the spacer tool and wipe away any excess glue which may have squeezed out from under the newly placed tie. Make sure to keep the tie under pressure when removing the spacing tool to avoid crooked ties. Place the tie under weight and repeat the process at the opposite bridge end until the ties are in place.
4) After about 6 ties are firmly mounted on each end of the bridge, remove the stringers from the template drawing. Place the bridge against the stripwood guide and continue to mount ties until all ties are mounted.

Ties mounted on Stringers. Note the two different types of spacing tools and how the bridge is against the stripwood guide. Weight blocks are also shown, as is a large triangle for keeping ties at 90 degrees.


Bridge Deck in Full Sunlight.


Bridge Deck - Room Lighting


Stringer Sides and Deck Center with Slightly Incorrect Tie Spacing.


-- KP --
Life is to short to build all of the models I want to.

Country: USA | Posts: 7212 Go to Top of Page

TRAINS1941
Engineer

Premium Member


Posted - 05/01/2017 :  11:31:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kris those stringers and ties dead on color wise.

Thanks for showing the difference in the lighting sun light/room light.


Jerry

"And in the end, it’s not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." A. Lincoln

Country: USA | Posts: 11833 Go to Top of Page

Ray Dunakin
Fireman



Posted - 05/07/2017 :  12:28:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ray Dunakin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The bridge is looking good already!


Country: USA | Posts: 3235 Go to Top of Page

Pennman
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 05/07/2017 :  12:43:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kris,
It's time to give you a round of applause for your expert tutorials! How do you find time to build anything after typing all of these instructions? I find it difficult to keep up with you.
I tip my hat to you, Sir! Well written
Rich



Country: USA | Posts: 4224 Go to Top of Page

hon3_rr
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 05/07/2017 :  01:06:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys. Appreciate the comments.

Currently I am in a bit of a modeling holding pattern. I'm getting to pretty much remodel the kitchen unexpectedly. I had a dishwasher decide to wash the kitchen floor and some of my crawspace without my permission. Needless to say, that appliance is now homeless. So I'm currently dealing with lots of noise from fans and airscrubbers. Looks like a few more days before the cabinets can be replaced and new flooring installed. So I'm going to be a few days before I can provide any new updates.


-- KP --
Life is to short to build all of the models I want to.

Edited by - hon3_rr on 05/07/2017 01:11:54 AM

Country: USA | Posts: 7212 Go to Top of Page
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