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desertdrover
Engineer
Premium Member
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 Posted - 06/01/2012 : 10:09:12 PM
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I’m hoping that some of you have figured this system out, or some High Power Line Workers are out there to answer this question.
I’ve got the Cornerstone HO Transmission Towers 933-3121, and the Cornerstone HO Scale Northern Light & Power Substation 933-3025. My hope is to get a drawing or some guidance on wiring the Substation out to the Towers.
Wiring the inside of the Substation is not the problem. What I need is how the wires leave the Substation and go to the first Tower.
 
 
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 Louis
Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast |
Country: USA
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jbvb
Fireman
Premium Member
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Posted - 06/01/2012 : 11:03:15 PM
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I'm not an EE or a high voltage tech, but: The substation is set up to receive 3-phase at the 3 long insulators on the crossbar at the left of your top photo. But the towers have 6 wires, implying two independent 3-phase lines. I'd bring one side of the tower down to the substation, and continue the other on across the layout, maybe just using one side of the towers (leave the insulators off the other side).
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BBLmber
Fireman
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 Posted - 06/02/2012 : 07:32:45 AM
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Coming out of this substation br 34.5 kv local transmission on poles like in the walthers power pole set. Each set of three insulators would reprsent a 3 phase circut to send to your factories and homes.
Mark
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| W,L,&E |
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Country: USA
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desertdrover
Engineer
Premium Member
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Posted - 06/02/2012 : 11:17:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jbvb
I'm not an EE or a high voltage tech, but: The substation is set up to receive 3-phase at the 3 long insulators on the crossbar at the left of your top photo. But the towers have 6 wires, implying two independent 3-phase lines. I'd bring one side of the tower down to the substation, and continue the other on across the layout, maybe just using one side of the towers (leave the insulators off the other side).
Hi James, I understand what you are saying, but I'd like to use both sides of the tower.
I looked on line to try and find a hook-up like I want. All I found was these pictures where the tower has two wires on each insulator, and the substation has two wires coming out from it. (pictures shown)
So, I guess there are different wiring situations.
I'd like to know now is, if it would be right to have two wires from each substation insulator going to each side of the tower insulators? Somthing like I am showing in the pictures posted.
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Louis
Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast |
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Country: USA
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desertdrover
Engineer
Premium Member
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Posted - 06/02/2012 : 11:21:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BBLmber
Coming out of this substation br 34.5 kv local transmission on poles like in the walthers power pole set. Each set of three insulators would reprsent a 3 phase circut to send to your factories and homes.
Mark
Hi Mark, what I'm tring to do is have a few High power towers coming into the power station, then go out from the station with power poles the the homes and factories.
What is you thoughts on the above posted pictures to James' reply.
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Louis
Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast |
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Country: USA
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BBLmber
Fireman
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Posted - 06/02/2012 : 11:29:16 AM
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It is a posible set-up, but a second scenerio would be to only use half the trans tower. The power companies do tthis all the time as it is cheaper to build the towers with plans for expantion than build additional towers at $250,000 each.
Mark
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| W,L,&E |
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desertdrover
Engineer
Premium Member
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Posted - 06/02/2012 : 11:35:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BBLmber
It is a posible set-up, but a second scenerio would be to only use half the trans tower. The power companies do tthis all the time as it is cheaper to build the towers with plans for expantion than build additional towers at $250,000 each.
Mark
True that, I guess.  
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Louis
Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast |
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Country: USA
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Tabooma County Rwy
Fireman
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Posted - 06/02/2012 : 12:25:04 PM
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Louis, your diagram that you provided would be an extremely unlikely scenario. Well, I'm basing that on the fact that I'm retired from the local power company in the greater Puget Sound region, and haven't really looked at systems on the east coast or elsewhere....
Also, what Mark said is very true, and I could find many, many examples of just one side of a transmission tower being used, the other side being reserved for "future expansion".
One other scenario would be for you to build a separate transmission switching station outside the substation you built. In this switching station, you would need a couple of high voltage switches, or circuit breakers, one for each side of the incoming transmission lines (the two different sides of your transmission towers). Then, in the middle, between the high voltage switches or circuit breakers, would be a sort of center tap off short buswork that would lead to the high voltage insulators on your substation model. What this essentially means is your substation could be fed from one or two different high voltage lines (although, typically, these would be on different towers, going different directions).
Actually, if you look at your prototype photo on the left, that is what is being done there - the transmission lines (three, in this case) are coming into a switching station, where the lines terminate at high voltage circuit breakers. This allows the power company to route the transmission lines in different manners, depending on needs, outages, etc. BTW, the high voltage lines like you have shown, out here in the greater Puget Sound region, typically are 230kV lines.
Regarding your prototype photos of the substation and towers with two conductors on each phase, what is being done there is the utility is using two "bundled" conductors to be able to carry more current - both wires on each phase are of equal size. This would probably be in the 230kV range (give or take, depending on the utility).
I've probably given you way more than you asked for. In your instance, unless you wanted to get elaborate with a switching station, etc., I'd do just as Mark suggested and just model the wires on one side of the transmission towers, which would be absolutely prototypical. If you needed to, you could find a photo on the internet (or I probably could for you) so you could post it near your modeled towers for the nit-pickers...
Al Carter
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desertdrover
Engineer
Premium Member
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Posted - 06/02/2012 : 3:47:31 PM
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Thank you Al for your comments and suggestion. I think I will go with the one sided tower wiring, after you stated that it is most definitively a prototypical setup. And, it would be alot easier for me. I see you are aware of the many nit-pickers we have to deal with in this hobby.
Also, although I'm from the east coast, like my signature states "Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast" I could use your advice being I'm tring to model Washington, & Oregon States area.
I will try to locate a tower with just one side wired for the nit-pickers, but could use your help also if you could find one and post it for me. Thanks in advance.
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Louis
Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast |
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Country: USA
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desertdrover
Engineer
Premium Member
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Posted - 06/02/2012 : 4:29:17 PM
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Just an update on these towers. As Al (Tabooma County Rwy) and James (jbvb) have stated, it is proto for just one side to be used.
I went on the web and it wasn't long to find both these situations.
 
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Louis
Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast |
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Tabooma County Rwy
Fireman
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Posted - 06/03/2012 : 11:57:05 AM
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Right on! Yup, there are lots of "prototypes" for this practice and I was sure you'd find a photo soon...
BTW, several years ago I built the same substation, and I wired in the buswork to the circuit breakers, and the "getaways" (distribution lines leaving the station). Three breakers - I made one an overhead circuit, and the other two, underground, showing underground cables from the circuit breakers. I rearranged the footprint of the substation to fit an available space on the layout. I put the transformer at the end of the distribution buswork. Substations are built in all sorts of configurations, often dictated by the available real estate.
I was using taller wood poles for my transmission line, rather than the towers you are using, as those towers typically would go from transmission station to transmission station (usually at the 230kV, 345kV, or 500kV line voltage level), where most distribution stations are fed by transmission (often called sub transmission) lines in the 55kV, 69kV, or 115kV line voltage level. Note that I said "often" and "most" - not to worry - like in railroading, also in substations, there is a prototype for just about anything.
OK, I've rambled on too much again...
Al Carter
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desertdrover
Engineer
Premium Member
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Posted - 06/03/2012 : 1:34:11 PM
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That will be my next attempt, to have some kind of real looking wiring within the Power Substation. I'm thinking I will be into some kind of research, I'm guessing here.
When you say "getaways" are you talking about the nine, three sets of the three, insulators on the other end of the substation?
Also, do these go out to telephone/power type poles to homes and business?
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Louis
Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast |
Edited by - desertdrover on 06/03/2012 1:39:03 PM |
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drolsen
New Hire
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Posted - 06/04/2012 : 04:58:14 AM
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I hope Louis doesn't mind me piggybacking on this discussion with a question of my own. I want to eventually include a compressed section of the substation near Point of Rocks, MD on my future CSX Old Main Line layout. The image below is a shot from Bing Maps of the substation - you can see that it has a rail siding extending inside, presumably to deliver heavy equipment to the site.
What I'm curious about is whether the Walthers substation components represent older versions of this equipment that would look out of place or "dated" on my 1998-era layout. It looks to me like the equipment closest to the tracks is arranged in a more "open" layout than what I've seen in a typical smaller substation. Are the Walthers components appropriate to use for the equipment visible in this photo, or would I be better off using parts from other kits out there? I'd appreciate any advice that your "trained eyes" can offer. Thanks, and my apologies for jumping on this thread!
Dave
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Railfanning and Modeling the CSX Old Main Line in the 1990s
http://drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/
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BBLmber
Fireman
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Posted - 06/04/2012 : 07:16:56 AM
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Dave, we piggy back on threads frequently about like topoics. As too your question the Walthers equiptment is fine for the substation you want to build. That sub station as not brand new and newer and older equiptment are found together all the time. They keep spares at larger facilities in case of major failures and planneds up-grades. I hope this helps.
Mark
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desertdrover
Engineer
Premium Member
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Posted - 06/04/2012 : 09:38:29 AM
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Hi Dave, I enjoy other members joining in on any of my threads. Too add to what Mark said, the parts in the Walthers kit could be used for your power station. The base that comes with it does not have to be used, you could spead around the items to a more open affect or keep it closer together with any base made to your liking. I have looked around my area at different substations, and the equipment seems to all look the same as what you get in the Walthers kit. You could get two kits and combine them as well. Just my 2 cents worth :-)
And thanks for posting the picture!
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Louis
Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast |
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Country: USA
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cp6027
New Hire
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Posted - 06/04/2012 : 12:34:17 PM
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I spent two summers working for the AC Transmission Planning department of a major electrical utility during engineering school so I'll throw in my two cents on these questions. Although I am a civil engineer specializing in railway transportation, the electrical transmission utilities are a lot like railroads in that their networked infrastructure is capital intensive and long-term but yet needs to meet growing demand.
It is very prototypical to build "double circuit towers" like the Cornerstone high voltage transmission towers and only string them on one side with the other side open for future use. Just be sure to trim the insulators from the side that isn't strung.
It would also be very prototypical to string both sides (two circuits) and only have the substation tapped off of one circuit. One side would drop down into the substation while the other three lines would continue on somewhere else. The side serving the substation could either terminate there or continue (but the position of the high voltage insulators at the model substation looks like it is meant for a line to terminate there).
If the lines drop into the station and then continue on, a neat detail to include would be a "transposition" where the wires (phases) switch positions as they pass through the station. To make a transposition, the wire coming off the top insulator on the last tower leading in to the station would connect to the middle insulator on the first tower out; the bottom wire would go up to the top; and the middle wire would drop down to the bottom. These transpositions are made so that one phase wire isn't always the bottom wire closest to the ground giving it more resistance(impedance) than the other phases.
You wouldn't want to tie the two circuits to the same set of three insulators as the two sides of the towers would cease being separate circuits. Ideally, each should have its own set of breakers and grounding banks to properly terminate each circuit in the station. This way, if there is a fault/short/maintenance on one of the circuits, it doesn't take down both lines and you have a better chance of maintaining service to the substation. One way to do this would be to put down a second substation kit right beside the first one so that each line has its own transformer and then tie the low voltage buses together between each half of the substation. The switching method (or high-side bus) described by another poster also works.
Regarding Dave's question, I'l add to the previous answers in that the Walthers kit is a bit selectively compressed and that you would want more space between components if you have the room. Also, things get taller and further apart depending on voltage so a station terminating 500kV or 345kV will have a much more open feel (and bigger insulators and equipment).
I worked for the utility in the summers of 1996 and 1997 and had to pull a lot of manufacturer test data to build computer models of the transmission and distribution network. The transformers and other station equipment ranged from the 50s right through to brand new (even older at some of the original hydroelectric generating stations), with the bulk from the 70s when growth in power demand was at its peak (this could vary a bit depending on your region). Most of it looked just like the equipment in the Walthers kit so this should also hold true for your 1998 era.
It is also true that the utilities will keep their large transformers in service as long as possible, leaving an older unit in as "bank 1" and installing a second newer parallel unit as "bank 2" right beside the old one. So older equipment will not look out of place at all.
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