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AntonioFP45
New Hire
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 Posted - 05/17/2012 : 8:16:02 PM
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Hello Crew,
Recently I visited the Suncoast Model Railroad Club to bring over samples of HO passenger cars that I metalized with Alclad2 in various finishes. Great group of welcoming, friendly modelers. My wife and I took over 40 photos. Below are some of the better shots. My apologies since the photo quality isn't outstanding as they were taken with an Apple Tablet (or whatever that thing is called). Picks up florescent lighting rather oddly. My reliable camera's batteries went "kaputz" earlier (talk about timing!).
The members present understood that I was a volunteer tester for Alclad2 and that Tony Hipp is in the process of gathering feedback from passenger train modelers before releasing the new easy-to-use formulas onto the market. I requested that the group be blunt about the finishes. My wife also recorded the verbal comments from the club's membership. The responses were positive and constructive; especially from the club's president, who is knowledgeable about prototype passenger equipment and operations. I forwarded the responses from the group to Tony. His idea is to keep this as simple and user friendly as possible.
Although there are variables in real life, for this there are 4 BASIC categories:
A. New/Restored Appearance: Excellent condition. 1 to 5 years average age. High Reflectivity. Dark SS tone.
B. Moderate Age/Wear Appearance: Very Good/ Well Maintained Condition. 5 to 15 year average age range; Good to Moderate Reflectivity. Medium to Dark SS tone.
C. Aged Appearance: Generally clean; but worn SS surface that has lightened in color. Moderate Reflectivity. Light SS tone.
D. Neglected Appearance: Faded surface; Low SS reflectivity. Light SS tone.
I have Categories A thru C represented. There is much more detail but that's putting it simply.
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This "Riv" coach was donated to the Club. I refinished it into Category B:
 
Interestingly, the units I had refinished in Category B were the most liked. I based that finish on several photos from rail photographer/modeler Stan Jackowski and Jason Shron of Rapido, both who very graciously allowed me to use their photos as reference, as well as my research into #7 and #8 prototype reflective stainless steel finishes. Here is a comparison between an SCL prototype photographed by Stan and the Category B coach I refinished for the club:
 
These two Riv units are Category C while the Walthers coach and diner are in Categories B & A, respectively:
 
Contrasts: Rivarossi Diner: Category C .......................... Walthers Coach: Category B
  
Shots of the SCL streamliner headed by ex-ACL E6A "race horse" #502.
  
Here's a couple of shots with one of Stan Jackowski's beautiful El Capitan units is parked next to the SCL train then coupled on to the diner.
  
There are more photos but I plan on using my camera for better photos next time. I did not weather the bodies as my intent was to show the actual finishes.
Please keep in mind that this is not intended to compete with Walthers and Rapido, but rather to complement them as an option for modelers wanting to build up their own "Steel Fleets". The intent is to bring passenger car modeling to a higher, more realistic and enjoyable level.
Please remember that SS finishes vary on prototypes, even within the same manufacturer. It's OK to run multiple finishes within the same train, but the choice is always yours. Also remember that SS finishes vary on prototypes, even within the same manufacturer. Cool factor is that you choose your finish.
Here's a nice example from David Graham. Look at the two Budds:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I owe a lot of "Thank Yous" to the Suncoast Model Railroader's Club's membership for willing to help out in this and for allowing me to display the units on the club's beautiful layout. Super group of guys and Thanks again to Stan Jackowski and Jason Shron. Also to the Tampa Bay Railroad Prototype Modeler's Group for their input during their last gathering.
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| Waiter, yes I'll have my Pullman Standards and Budds in clean, stainless steel flavors please! |
Country: USA
| Posts: 28 |
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nhguy
Fireman
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Posted - 05/18/2012 : 12:59:40 AM
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So Alclad is a 2 step metal looking lacquer finish used on model planes, cars and trucks? What finishes did you use. Those look awsome!
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Bill Shanaman
Superintendent, New Haven RR in the 1948 to 1952 era
PMRA President 2013-14, OpSIG Member
NCE User Since 1999
Sugar City, Colorado |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 3664 |
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gregnarrowgauge
Engine Wiper
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Posted - 05/18/2012 : 01:15:15 AM
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Dear Bill S.
Thanks for clearing up what the finish was...I was thinking it was some sort of metal film....
Greg
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Country: Australia
| Posts: 154 |
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nhguy
Fireman
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Posted - 05/18/2012 : 4:32:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gregnarrowgauge
Dear Bill S.
Thanks for clearing up what the finish was...I was thinking it was some sort of metal film....
Greg
Greg,
i did a Google search last night and came up with it. Model Airplane guys use this stuff a lot. I had forgotten all about it until this thread. A also think this is what Walther's new 'metal finish' is on the newest passenger cars and forthcoming RDC's It looks pretty darn good.
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Bill Shanaman
Superintendent, New Haven RR in the 1948 to 1952 era
PMRA President 2013-14, OpSIG Member
NCE User Since 1999
Sugar City, Colorado |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 3664 |
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AntonioFP45
New Hire
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Posted - 05/18/2012 : 8:19:32 PM
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Guys, thank you for your responses.
This is not Walthers process though. Walthers has their cars "electroplated" at the manufacturer. Alclad2 is a lacquer product that you apply with an airbrush.
I've been experimenting with it for several years and have been sharing my results on several forums to encourage passenger car modelers to give their passenger cars a realistic, stainless steel look.
Here is Alclad2's website.
alclad2.com
If you go the gallery, you'll see some of my passenger cars their under "Guest" and "Railroad".
I hope that I don't get in trouble with our moderator for posting this many photos as I hope they'll be helpfu. I copied and pasted the procedure I posted on the MRR Forum on April 2011:
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Hello Crew,
Please forgive my gung-ho enthusiasm, but I have to tell you this process is becoming more and more enjoyable and feel that if a klutz like me can do this.....
so can anyone that can handle an airbrush! I felt that this would be a decent time to post this.
The intent here is to demonstrate how to take a relatively inexpensive car that's commonly found on ebay and swap meets and easily transform it into something that looks much more prototypical
that you'd enjoy running on your layout..
A. Subject: HO scale 1980's IHC dome car. Model is based on prototype Pullman Standard unit
used by the Santa Fe (Pleasure Dome). Belongs to a good friend of mine, my wife's cousin, who is a Santa Fe & BNSF fan.
He purchased it at a train show for a bargain at $10. (ironic, for me, that it was in the SCL scheme!)
1. I removed the shell from the chassis and gave it a 91% alcohol bath. After soaking for just 5 minutes, the factory
silver paint came off easily with a toothbrush. After stripping, the shell was washed with warm water and an inexpensive dishwashing liquid.
 
2. Basecoat Color (foundation) - Scalecoat 2, New York Central Light Gray. Thinned 60%.
Airbrush: Paasche VL. Needle and aircap sizes: #3 (medium). Air pressure at tip: 25psi. Distance to shell: 3" inches.
Total number of coats: Two, medium-wet.
 
3. Critical stage: Gray finish must be SMOOTH! After drying; check the shell for dry or rough spots. If mistakes are discovered,
this is the time to fix them. Wet sand spots, clean and apply another coat over shell if needed. When finished, flush out & clean airbrush with lacquer thinner
4. As the basecolor cured, I took the molded black plastic seating unit that was in the dome section and hand painted it with Polyscale acrylics.
The floor: gold/brown with a dark brown mat in the center. The seats, a blue mix based on forum member Smitty's photo of his Santa Fe dome car .
5. Alclad Application - Formula: ALC-107. No thinning. Airbrush Needle & aircap sizes-#1 (fine). Air pressure at tip: 15psi.
Distance to shell: 2" inches. Number of coats: Three. FIRST, I spent several minutes testing myself on the back section of a scrap FP45 shell
to make sure the airbrush was spraying well and my distance/stroke speed were good. This step is a headache preventer
as I discovered that I needed to increase my speed, slightly.
6. Spraying the Alclad 2. Relax and enjoy. (I had my smooth jazz tunes playing) Maintain the airbrush parallel to the surface.
Spray in a mist coat and stroke your airbrush as if you were painting with a modeler's paint brush. Tip: ( Wear an appropriate respirator)
As you spray, keep your head within 10" of your model, but over it, and either to the right or left of the airbrush so you can monitor your speed and distance.
Some people have a tendency of standing directly behind the airbrush while spraying and not clearly seeing if they're getting too close or far
yes, been there, done that!) Wait 5 minutes between coats if temperature is over 75F. Wait longer at lower temps.
Check shell carefully for any areas missed; and stroke over if needed. Flush & clean airbrush upon finishing
7. Sealing/Toning down sheen - New product. Instead of the Testor's Acryl or Pollyscale clears,
I applied one of Alclad's NEW waterbased clear; #ALC 600.
Thinning: None. Airbrush needle & aircap sizes #3 (medium).
Air pressure at tip 20 psi. Distance 3" inches. Number of coats: One:
After practicing for several minutes with the medium size needle/aircap set up,I applied the clear to the shell.
I was surprised at how fine this atomizes and smoothly lays on top of the Alclad finish.
IMHO, this performed superior to the clears I've used before. However, upon finishing the airbrush must be flushed out immediately.
I used a mixture of distilled water and alcohol to flush out.
8. The sheen toned down beautifully, imho, to the appearance of highly polished, reflective stainless steel.
Only one coat was applied since this will be the foundation for the Santa Fe decals.
Afterwards, 1 to 2 more coats of clear will seal the decals and tone down the sheen more. This shot is before re-assembly:
9. After lightly weathering the underframe and diaphrams, Re-assembly:
White styrene strips were positioned and glued in place to resemble window shades.
Dome interior seat module was reinstalled and body installed on to chassis. OUTDOOR PHOTOS:
 
 
Weathering on diaphram
Indoor photos:
 
Now, respectfully, here are some photos (not taken by me) of prototype stainless steel units, including the Santa Fe dome.
 
 
You can clearly see the reason why we should not be so deeply worried about getting a "PERFECT" stainless steel match.
Except for when these cars were new........there's no such thing! The combination of weather, dirt/grime, maintenance practices,
and photographic lighting conditions only help to confirm this. New HavenPullman Standard, deep sheen, good condition:
SCL (photo by Dixon) older, polished surface with dents & stains
ACF cars in fairly new condition. Stainless steel sheathing is "whiter" than Budd and Pullman Standard cars of similar age: (BCoolidge photo)
Now, take a good look at these photos of the same car YEARS APART. Note that as the car aged (and was likely neglected),
the sheen dulled considerably and the surface faded to a lighter grayish hue
 
As a former transit shop collision repair tech that often worked with steels, imho,
the arguments regarding which finish is the best or most realistic is like the old Ford vs Chevy argument. Walthers Pine series and Rapido's stainless steel finishes
differ from each other Y-E-T they are both realistic.
Those of you with "silver" passenger cars that would like the stainless steel look
should give this a go. IT IS PROTOTYPICAL if stainless steel hues and sheens within a train don't match up perfectly!
I'm not a salesman, but as I've stated so often, back in the day I fantasized about having onboard sound in HO locomotives, and HO passenger cars
with surfaces that looked just like the prototype streamliners......... instead of "silver" paint, Here we are!
Another point: I'm frequently asked why Alclad #107 Chrome and not Stainless Steel. I'll explain again. Alclad #115 Stainless Steel resembles the finish
that you see on SS appliances and sinks. Even with alloying and machining differences Budd, PS, and ACF used high Chromium content
on their cars surfaces resulting in "High Reflectivity". By applying the Clear on top of the Chrome, you can instantly tone it down to the level that you desire,
whether you're using photographs or have access to a prototype car. With Alclad Stainless Steel #115, the reflectivity is knocked down considerably.
Yet, even some cars with considerably faded exteriors will still display reflectivity, like these two:
 
As a high schooler back in the late 70s, I spent a lot of time in and around Amtrak Heritage cars,
including units still in their predecessor finishes. Guys, I have photos and can tell you a lot of those sheens were deeper
and more brilliant than what's on the Walthers Pine cars, like this photo (not mine).
Inspite of the problems posed by photography and the persistence of some modelers that "photos are subjective",
one thing that MANY, MANY photos reveal that's undeniable regardless of lighting, color saturation, pixel counts,
overexposure, underexposure and even black&white photography
......is reflective sheens. Alclad #107 resembles "Chromium".
The prototype streamliners we are talking about contained "Chromium" in their surfaces, which is why they were so mirror-like when new (after extensive polishing in the plant).
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| Waiter, yes I'll have my Pullman Standards and Budds in clean, stainless steel flavors please! |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 28 |
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nhguy
Fireman
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Posted - 05/19/2012 : 12:42:47 AM
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Very fine tutorial. When you say: "Spray in a mist coat and stroke your airbrush as if you were painting with a modeler's paint brush." Do mean up and down or parallel to the model (back and forth/left to right)?
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Bill Shanaman
Superintendent, New Haven RR in the 1948 to 1952 era
PMRA President 2013-14, OpSIG Member
NCE User Since 1999
Sugar City, Colorado |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 3664 |
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AntonioFP45
New Hire
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Posted - 05/19/2012 : 7:46:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nhguy
Very fine tutorial. When you say: "Spray in a mist coat and stroke your airbrush as if you were painting with a modeler's paint brush." Do mean up and down or parallel to the model (back and forth/left to right)?
NHGuy,
Spray in a light mist coat in a horizontal motion. Always start and finish each stroke beyond the body. I prefer to spray from the bottom to the roof center; then I swivel the shell around and do the same thing. Then I finish the ends. Sometimes I'll do the ends first. The important factor is NOT to pile the metalizer on, otherwise it will come out rough.
The first mist coat will be almost invisible and you'll think that you didn't do anything. But look at it closely and you'll see the metalized coating. I've found that typically modelers starting out do well by the 3rd mist coat and with practice can cover a model well with the second mist coat.
I did a batch of HO Metroliner shells a few years ago. Here is one of them with its first mist coat. Note that it's transparent and the dark gray is dominant:
2nd mist coat:
3rd coat: Note, reflectivity not yet toned down with clear coat in these shots:
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| Waiter, yes I'll have my Pullman Standards and Budds in clean, stainless steel flavors please! |
Edited by - AntonioFP45 on 05/19/2012 7:55:20 PM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 28 |
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Sean_OBrien
Engine Wiper
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Posted - 05/21/2012 : 08:35:45 AM
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I've been using Alclad paints for several years now - and they are wonderful (probably the best metallics you can get without dealing with platings or films). Although people really like them for their chromes and stainless steels, the other paints are useful as well for things like steamers and what not.
Like Antonio says - the key with Alclad (and other metals in general) is a smooth surface. If the surface is rough, your whole paint job will be shot and it won't look the metallic part.
The other interesting bit is that while it isn't really a two stage metallic finish (as Bill said), the base coat will determine how the paint looks to a very high degree. Alclad recommends a gloss black since that will provide the highest level of sheen (same principle used in making mirrors). Antonio seems to like the results he is getting with chrome over grey - but depending on what you are after you can use almost any gloss paint. As opposed to reinventing the wheel though, let me refer you to this post:
http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/forums/p/58232/592045.aspx
Pretty well covers the gamut of their metal line (don't think many model RR builders will be using their candy or flipping colors...so I will leave those out).
Remember, these are not water based...they are good old fashioned lacquers and everything that applies to lacquer safety should be followed in spades. If not, don't be surprised if you wake up in a hotel with a monkey and can't remember how you got there.
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AntonioFP45
New Hire
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Posted - 05/21/2012 : 11:36:01 PM
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Good points from Shawn,
Regarding rail cars. In the past I was a collision & paint tech for a transit system and worked with a variety of steels, including ss. In researching the closest appearances to the steels used by by the "big 3" (Budd,PS,ACF) I found that gray tones, warm and cool, used underneath Alclad metalizers came the closest in appearance:
 
  
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| Waiter, yes I'll have my Pullman Standards and Budds in clean, stainless steel flavors please! |
Edited by - AntonioFP45 on 05/22/2012 05:18:25 AM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 28 |
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Jim from Valencia CA
Engine Wiper
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Posted - 05/22/2012 : 5:37:11 PM
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If you go back to the Atlas forum, Tony did a ton of posts there about this subject. I learned a lot. Thanks for continuing to post on this forum!
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Country: USA
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Miles
Engine Wiper
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Posted - 05/22/2012 : 11:39:18 PM
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Although you reeeeeally must post larger photos Antonio, I very much appreciate your work in the field of ALCLAD 2! This looks amazing, so keep it up and keep us informed.
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AntonioFP45
New Hire
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Posted - 05/27/2012 : 07:49:04 AM
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Thank you guys.
Miles, I'm not certain how to resize photos. On my photo account, from what I've read, these photos are at maximum size. Additionally, if I could make them larger, my concern would be taking up too much bandwith. When I first started posting photos on another forum a few years back I was asked to go easy on the photo quantity and size.
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| Waiter, yes I'll have my Pullman Standards and Budds in clean, stainless steel flavors please! |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 28 |
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Rick
Administrator
Premium Member
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Posted - 05/27/2012 : 11:20:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AntonioFP45
Thank you guys.
Miles, I'm not certain how to resize photos. On my photo account, from what I've read, these photos are at maximum size. Additionally, if I could make them larger, my concern would be taking up too much bandwith. When I first started posting photos on another forum a few years back I was asked to go easy on the photo quantity and size.
Check out this thread for a link to a free photo editing program: http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5383
Then download your pictures directly to forum.
This has always been the preferred method of posting pictures here.
Also read this thread in regards to picture sizes: http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36807
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Country: USA
| Posts: 17721 |
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AntonioFP45
New Hire
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Posted - 05/30/2012 : 05:45:32 AM
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Thank you, Rick.
I'll read the info and give resizing my photos a shot.
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| Waiter, yes I'll have my Pullman Standards and Budds in clean, stainless steel flavors please! |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 28 |
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raystew
New Hire
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Posted - 05/30/2012 : 08:37:18 AM
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So when will this be available to the masses? I have seen something similar to this years ago on models and it was way to bright and looked toy like. I have a fleet of cars that I would like to paint with this system on day and want the aged but well maintained look on the finished models. What would I have to purchase and what are the steps that would be needed to achieve the look that I desire? From your posting I would like stage B to a mix of stage C.
Looking forward to learning more in this, as this thread has been helpful to me so far.
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Country: USA
| Posts: 30 |
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AntonioFP45
New Hire
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Posted - 06/03/2012 : 1:52:51 PM
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Hello Ray,
The new line of basecoat colors and metalizer finishes are expected sometime later this summer. But you don't have to wait as you can do this right now with materials that are currently available on the market.
Here is a "guide" thread I posted on another forum ( I hope our moderator does not mind) I hope it's helpful:
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/195446/2134516.aspx
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| Waiter, yes I'll have my Pullman Standards and Budds in clean, stainless steel flavors please! |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 28 |
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