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 My Katsumi Brass Shay Project
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Author Previous Topic: Harry Brunk and the HOn3 Union Central & Northern Topic Next Topic: Hoppers ????
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Cascade Man
Engine Wiper



Posted - 03/28/2012 :  9:58:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello everyone again! Well I finally purchased my first brass shay at a local show for a great price and I am simply in love with it! It's a Katsumi 20-ton shay from the 70's I believe (?). It could run much better but I'm hoping to get it running like a clock soon. It came with a lousy paint job though of just flat black and I was curious on how to strip a brass loco of it's paint without damaging anything. I have never owned brass so I am completely new to this. This post in going to follow my tuning up process and repaint of my first shay. Pictures are coming VERY soon!

Country: USA | Posts: 235

adrian_batey
Crew Chief

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  11:16:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit adrian_batey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I recently did a united shay.
To start with i would take photos befor pulling it apart. Just so you have something for reference later on.
I pull as much off mine as posssible. Just to make sure there is not bits of plastic around here and there that will melt away when you clean it.
Once i take everything apart i have an old stainless pot that i fill with acetone to strip it.
I start with the small parts and the frame so that once that is done and the boler cab ect is soaking away you can work on getting the loco back up and running.

What are you planing on doing? Open frame motor? DCC? that kind of thing. I cant wait to follow along.

The benson united shay i just did im considering starting again since i can't get it running to the point im happy with.



Country: Australia | Posts: 715 Go to Top of Page

Cascade Man
Engine Wiper



Posted - 03/28/2012 :  11:51:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I took it apart already without taking photos and I'm now really wishin I tok your advice... But I got it back together I believe. It has an open frame motor as of now but I'm not sure how to put a can motor on it or where to get one with the right worm gear mounted on the motor shaft. I plan on putting DCC into and making it into one of my main runners so it has to run good! It has a slight bend in the frame to that isn't really noticable but it's bugging the crap out of me because I know it's there. I'm not really sure how to fix that. Anyways I'll put photos up tomorrow sometime. I'm currently trying o figure why it isn't running so hot. I stripped everything and cleaned all the parts with a toothbrush and isoproprl alcohole. Maybe it's the motor?


Country: USA | Posts: 235 Go to Top of Page

Neil M
Fireman

Premium Member

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  01:13:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have you checked the gears for fluff and old dried up oil/grease that needs to be cleaned out?

The motor could be part of the problem. The permanent magnet can loose strength over time and as the field strength drops the current drawn by the motor rises and the torque generated reduces. Could you use a gear puller and a press to remove the worm from the old motor and stick it on a new can motor? Measure the diameter of the motor shaft and get one the same (if you can) to avoid having sleeve between the worm and the motor shaft, it makes things a bit easier


Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia

Country: Australia | Posts: 2259 Go to Top of Page

Cascade Man
Engine Wiper



Posted - 03/29/2012 :  03:18:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I give the shay power sometimes it moves and sometimes it doesn't... If it doesn't then if i give the motor core a little nudge with my finger (it's open frame) then it'll go. I have put it on 100% throttle and not have it go anywhere then all of a sudden it'll take off like a bat outa hell!


Country: USA | Posts: 235 Go to Top of Page

adrian_batey
Crew Chief

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  04:47:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit adrian_batey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cascade Man

Well I took it apart already without taking photos and I'm now really wishin I tok your advice...



I did that on my first one about 18 months ago.

Here is some links that may be of help to you.

http://schutzer.net/Brass_Clinics/Clinics_page1.htm

This one i know isn't what you have but it offers some info.

http://shastasprings.com/repower/PFM-HO_Shay_Repower-2009.htm

If you look at the first link there are a few clinics there that are useful. I remember reading something about tuning open frame motors in there also but to be honest i would be puting in a can motor if DCC is what your looking at.

A few things i have done in the past:

I use mashiama motors i get from here

http://www.hollywoodfoundry.com/

Or NWSL can motors.

If i dont have the right shaft size i have been using these to convert it. Sometimes the worm may not be tight and i have used a soldering iron and a touch of solder on the end of the motor shaft.


http://shop.osorail.com/category.sc?categoryId=43

I hope some of the links are helpful



Country: Australia | Posts: 715 Go to Top of Page

dougcoffey1950
Crew Chief



Posted - 03/29/2012 :  07:40:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit dougcoffey1950's Homepage  Send dougcoffey1950 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I had one of those Shays and I repowered it with a Sagami motor. The Katsumi I had ran extremely well. One of the things I liked was the all wheel electrical pickup. Katsumi seemed to be ahead of their time in that regard.
To remove the paint I used commercial automotive paint remover on the engine and trucks and used a glassbeader on the rest of the model. As I recall the biggest challenge was installing Kadee HOn3 couplers. I had to file out the coupler pockets and build a styrene bases pad and glue it place in to mount the coupler boxes.


http://www.dougcoffey.com/html/model_railroad.html

Country: Canada | Posts: 985 Go to Top of Page

reklein
Engine Wiper



Posted - 03/29/2012 :  10:12:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I got that same Shay recently and plan to do the same mods. I bet if you called NWSL, their man there could tell you exactly what motor you'd need to put in.Be sure to measure with a mike ,the shaft size of the motor so everything will fit back.I'll follow this thread fer sure. Bill in Idaho


Country: USA | Posts: 258 Go to Top of Page

Cascade Man
Engine Wiper



Posted - 03/29/2012 :  1:26:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So here are some photos of the shay as I got it. I'm thinking the problem is the motor. Not sure if I will go with a Mashima, Sagami, or NWSL motor. Here is a list of things I want to do to this shay and if you have any help or advice with any of the project then feel free to let me know! I am new to brass so this is a new adventure!

-Install new can motor
-Install DCC
-Repaint
-The whole train and frame wobbles on the truck so figure out how to stop that
-Find where this little part goes!! (see photo)
-Add plastic or brass between the tender and cab to hide motor.











Here is the part and screw that when I disassembled I forgot where it went. Should have took photos! Anyone know where it goes? I thinkn it came from the bottom of the frame.

http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/Cascade Man/201232913245_IMG_1452.JPG[/img



Country: USA | Posts: 235 Go to Top of Page

Cascade Man
Engine Wiper



Posted - 03/29/2012 :  1:28:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Whoops here is the photo of the part that I can't find where it goes






Country: USA | Posts: 235 Go to Top of Page

adrian_batey
Crew Chief

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  4:24:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit adrian_batey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Im not sure about where the little part is from but the photo of the motor and worm looks like you will have potential.

I think the first step would be to see if the worm can be pulled from the motor shaft (haven't done this before since my last 3 had a grub screw and it was simple).

Then i would be measuring the shaft daimeter and length and trying to find a motor to fit.
Contact NWSL and tell them what loco it is and you may be able to raplce the worm gear with something that has a 1mm or 1.5 inside diameter. Im sure they will be able to find the right one (and when you do tell the rest of us so we can do the same haha).
This would make it alot easier to find a motor and not have to stuff around with shaft adaptors.

Also to hide the motor what about a crew standing on thew step there on either side.



Country: Australia | Posts: 715 Go to Top of Page

reklein
Engine Wiper



Posted - 03/29/2012 :  8:15:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First heres a shot of my shay,Really needs paint.


Second I think your spare part may be located under the right rear set of wheels. Its hard to see in my photo ,but look for the little screw hole in that area.


Bill in Idaho



Country: USA | Posts: 258 Go to Top of Page

Neil M
Fireman

Premium Member

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  9:12:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Since the existing motor looks quite long (it's a bit hard to tell from the photo) another option could be to chop off the section of the existing motor shaft with the worm on it and retain that, with a flexible joint to the new motor shaft. You would need a new bracket to hold the other side of the worm gear and a piece of silicone tubing.

The wobbling on track might be cured by tightening the mounting screw on one of the trucks (but leave the other looser so it keeps more wheels in contact with the track). If that doesn't work then I would suggest gluing or soldering on a beam/strip across the floor of the frame that rear truck can rest on, rather than just on the centre pivot. That should give enough width to resist the wobbling caused by gears going in and out of mesh.

I'm not sure about the phantom bit? It looks like the screw goes through a hole somewhere and screws into the threaded hole on the bracket part. Could it be anything to do with the hole just above the worm gear in your second last photo?


Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia

Country: Australia | Posts: 2259 Go to Top of Page

dougcoffey1950
Crew Chief



Posted - 03/30/2012 :  08:01:27 AM  Show Profile  Visit dougcoffey1950's Homepage  Send dougcoffey1950 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
The little part is a wire hold down and goes on the bottom of the frame to secure the wire from front truck to motor.
Join my Yahoo Group called Repower and Regear and you will find lots of help there.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/repowerandregear
After I repowered my Shay I painted the motor and flywheel black and stood crew members in the openings.
You can see it operating here http://www.dougcoffey.com/html/hon3_layout_7.html
Doug


http://www.dougcoffey.com/html/model_railroad.html

Country: Canada | Posts: 985 Go to Top of Page

Cascade Man
Engine Wiper



Posted - 03/31/2012 :  8:31:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for all the help gents! That is a nice shay you got there! Looks like we will probably be doing the same restorations. Thanks to everybodys help I fininally found where that little part goes! Probably the next step will be to strip the paint. I have to email NWSL and figure out what kind of motor I need. Then comes the problem of mounting it...


Country: USA | Posts: 235 Go to Top of Page

dougcoffey1950
Crew Chief



Posted - 04/01/2012 :  08:17:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit dougcoffey1950's Homepage  Send dougcoffey1950 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I mounted my motor on a blob of black silicon sealer. I get everything lined up using temporary styrene strips tacked down with some type of adhesive. Once satisfied, I use silicone and when it hardens (24 hours later) I remove the styrene strips.
Now the motor is rubber mounted, isolated for DCC and quiet operating.
I think the 12mm Sagami motor will fit in there nicely.


http://www.dougcoffey.com/html/model_railroad.html

Country: Canada | Posts: 985 Go to Top of Page
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