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Mario Rapinett
Fireman



Posted - 11/08/2011 :  05:41:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Jerry. Welcome mate.
Glad to see you ventured away from the "Terrapin" mob for 5 minutes , although we have a few "T" members here, lurking around for ideas

ciao "M"




Country: Australia | Posts: 5872 Go to Top of Page

Tommatthews
Engineer

Premium Member


Posted - 11/08/2011 :  08:15:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Letters and Numbers:

I want to hand paint "VLSL" (Vincent Lake Short Line and numbers on the side of the cars. How high would these numbers / letters be? As this is an o.f. boxcar would I use a number board? The numbering would be a single or double digit at most.


Tom M.

Country: | Posts: 9572 Go to Top of Page

Richard Gardner
Section Hand



Posted - 11/08/2011 :  10:50:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tommatthews

Letters and Numbers:

I want to hand paint "VLSL" (Vincent Lake Short Line and numbers on the side of the cars. How high would these numbers / letters be? As this is an o.f. boxcar would I use a number board? The numbering would be a single or double digit at most.



Hi Tom...

These are the kinds of questions I live for. The ones that drive you crazy... '-)

Based on my observations and artistic training, the information board/s would occupy the top third mark of the left side. Don't put them in the center vertically, this is a compositional no-no. Try looking at as many stock cars as you can find for inspiration. Of course a number would be located on the end as high up as permissible, I assume so the brake man can see it first as he is making his way down the roof walks. Often there are no boards so any lettering would be brief and painted on the sheathing between the frame members. See page eight of this build for an example of how I intend to letter my car.

This is one of those questions that I would bug Jerry about even though I know he'll spend a couple of hours searching through his reference books for the answer! I have in the past made an assumption based on what I thought was sound logic only to be gently reminded that there were other factors that my pea brain hadn't even thought of.

So... Jerry?

Jon of Morgan Hills Models.

Thanks so much for your generous offer of the laser side frames. I hope some members take you up on the offer, I know I will. You are just one more example of the generosity of our little community.

Jerry...

Thanks for posting the close-up photos of the Grandt hardware. Looks like the "old poop" has acquired new skills!

Mario...

I know you're out there. Thanks for following us...

Richard



Country: USA | Posts: 81 Go to Top of Page

Jerry Kitts
New Hire



Posted - 11/08/2011 :  4:24:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Richard and Company,

This one did not require two hours of searching. This is a simi easy one to answer about lettering.



In 1923 the American Railway Association meet and came up with standard lettering and marking of box cars. Before that date it was pretty much hit and miss as far as lettering goes. Not that the lettering was a real jumble, the ARA standard came from the most common practices of the day. Prior to 1923 for example you might find the reporting marks and car number on the right hand side of a car. The ARA also did the other classes of cars, I have all of that too if its needed or wanted.

In the case of outside framed cars use the side sill for lettering like it was a flat car. Outside braced box and stock cars are hard to letter even for the prototypes railroads.

If you model before 1923 and your railroad does not interchange cars then you can pretty much do as you please. Note that the Rio Grande, Rio Grande Southern, and Colorado & Southern pretty much followed the lettering practice as they did interchange cars. They did in fact pretty much follow the ARA mandates. The lettering shown is the mandatory stuff and adding heralds and other lettering is up to the railroad. The ARA did specify a lettering style which pretty no one paid much attention to, which was the use of Railroad Roman.

In the case of Richard's lettering in his drawings I will give him a poke. Now of course if his railroad does not interchange cars then all my poking and/or giving him a hard time is just to point out the correct lettering if its 1923 or later.

Richard is not using reporting marks, instead he is using his herald to say who owns the car. The herald is supposed be on the other side of the car. There should be reporting marks with the number under the reporting marks. The reporting marks could be as short as SH or SHRR or S.H.RR. On his outside framed box the lettering according to the ARA is much too high.

As to the end lettering Richard got it right and for the right reason. For which I will give him a gold star for today. I am only using Richard as an example and not being a nit picker, as I am smiling while I write this, I might be having fun at his expense.

Narrow gauge railroads in particular generally did not have scales to weight their cars to get all the reporting marks correct. So that information was probably missing. Also some NG railroads did not interchange and did not care past being able to identify which car was which so maintenance people could find the right car to work on it, in this case you might only see a car number.

In lettering cars I often refer to either the C&S or D&RGW for guidance, or break down and get out the reference books. I find to make a good free-lance model you need to follow the practices and customs of your time period, so that someone viewing your model thinks they might have seen a picture of that car in a book. I prefer to call it Proto-Freelancing.




Here we have a Gregg Car Company outside framed box that is really small. The lettering ended up on the door. Gregg C.C. was an American builder that shipped all over the world. The car was made and lettered in America.

Jerry


Jerry
Diamond Springs and Fiddletown Ry.

Country: USA | Posts: 37 Go to Top of Page

Tommatthews
Engineer

Premium Member


Posted - 11/08/2011 :  5:51:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Richard and Jerry,

I mention the use of boards as this allows my shaky hand to try as many times as needed to get the numbers and letters painted right. Bigger is better for this reason.



Tom M.

Country: | Posts: 9572 Go to Top of Page

Richard Gardner
Section Hand



Posted - 11/08/2011 :  6:02:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Jerry...

I figured you might have some definitive information regarding lettering and reporting marks. As you already know, I've requested a larger image so I can send it out to the Addendum members.

As usual, you could have slain me where I stood for giving out lousy advice, but once again you've decided to enlighten me with wisdom. for that I thank you. I just hate it when I get slain.

I, for one will return to my drawings and adjust my lettering to be more appropriate. Even though Sweet Haven Railroad will not interchange, I agree with you, "prototype freelancing" does not necessarily lead to rivet counting and is a good way to make your car look more believable. I'm sure you're aware that most On30'rs detest rivet counting.

I'll move my logo to the other side and put my reporting marks in the MIDDLE! Jeesh, doesn't the ARA have any sense of composition at all? I'll also look at the other suggestions to see where I can improve my graphics.

And, please tell Tom he can use a letter board! He has shaky hands for goodness sakes! :-)

Richard









Country: USA | Posts: 81 Go to Top of Page

Tommatthews
Engineer

Premium Member


Posted - 11/08/2011 :  6:15:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Richard,

It is those darn "drugs"


Tom M.

Edited by - Tommatthews on 11/08/2011 6:15:51 PM

Country: | Posts: 9572 Go to Top of Page

Tommatthews
Engineer

Premium Member


Posted - 11/08/2011 :  6:22:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jerry,

I am a non rivet counter. However, I really enjoy learning about the history of the railroads, their locomotives and rolling stock.

You and Richard may not know that I am the owner / operator of a 1:1 railroad speeder (Fairmont MT-19).



Tom M.

Country: | Posts: 9572 Go to Top of Page

Rick
Administrator

Premium Member


Posted - 11/08/2011 :  6:29:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This has to be one of the most informative threads on the forums of all time.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed but special thanks to Richard, Jon and Jerry.



Country: USA | Posts: 23929 Go to Top of Page

Jerry Kitts
New Hire



Posted - 11/08/2011 :  6:54:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tom,

At Richard's request here is a simple way to letter a short line outside braced box car. Lettering on a board added to the car side in about the same place as reporting marks and number would be on a more normal box car. I could lower the letter board 6 to 9 inches and be in the ARA defined area for reporting marks and numbers. The ARA requested 9 inch lettering for reporting marks.



This would be a simple lettering for a car not offered in interchange. Perhaps my letter board is a bit high. Then again I model pre-1900 so the rule is there are no rules, sounds kind of On30 doesn't it?

The color of ocher was very popular pre-1900 with black iron work and that is what I choose to do. Ocher was popular with the paint shop foreman i.e. it was cheap paint.

Tom you could paint your letter board in your favorite color letter it and then glue it in place.

Jerry


Jerry
Diamond Springs and Fiddletown Ry.

Country: USA | Posts: 37 Go to Top of Page

Jerry Kitts
New Hire



Posted - 11/08/2011 :  7:20:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rick,

I have for many years supplied the facts as I have found them. Which pretty much makes me a rivet counter and proud of it. I see it as my job (self appointed of course) to supply the best information I can and if no one chooses to follow the information that is fine.

I was an engineer and the last road foremen of engines on the Northwestern Pacific and have a lot of information to share.

While many see On30 as a straight freelance place to hobby, I tend to see it as a place to model prototype 30" gauge. No rule says you have to do as I do, then again I should not be shunned for being a rivet counter either.

So far this has been one of the best threads I have been on and feel good about contributing to building a outside framed box car.

Jerry


Jerry
Diamond Springs and Fiddletown Ry.

Country: USA | Posts: 37 Go to Top of Page

Jerry Kitts
New Hire



Posted - 11/08/2011 :  7:24:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tom,

There is one club here that does the motor car thing. I have lead a number of motor car outings on the NWP. Well someone has to be in charge.

We had a number of two man Fairmonts here, and one ancient beast that had a Ford straight eight in it, it good get over the road in a hurry.

Jerry


Jerry
Diamond Springs and Fiddletown Ry.

Country: USA | Posts: 37 Go to Top of Page

morganhillmodels
Engine Wiper

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  7:41:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit morganhillmodels's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well said Jerry! I agree, I enjoy studying the prototype and building rolling stock as acurately as possible. Even if you have a freelance RR that builds its own rolling stock in its own carshop, there are still fundimental car building practices one cannot ignore.



Country: USA | Posts: 238 Go to Top of Page

Tommatthews
Engineer

Premium Member


Posted - 11/08/2011 :  7:54:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll practice with lettering on a board. With a little practice perhaps I'll feel confident to try painting directly on the box car.

Thanks for the written information and pictures.


Tom M.

Country: | Posts: 9572 Go to Top of Page

morganhillmodels
Engine Wiper

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  8:14:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit morganhillmodels's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Tom
Woodland Scenics makes some nice dry transfer lettters in various styles and sizes that you could use. Hand lettering is difficult and I've rarely seen it look good. You could also make a stencil by carefully cutting out letters with an xacto



Edited by - morganhillmodels on 11/08/2011 8:15:00 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 238 Go to Top of Page
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