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 coal dump pit located ?
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Author Previous Topic: Kleefskill Junction Final Design Topic Next Topic: Industries  and Car Useage
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Carrie Creek
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 09/30/2008 :  1:02:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A ? about where the dump pit is located in relation to the coaling tower. Can I place it on the same track used by the engines getting coal or does it have to be on its own spur? I really do not have room for another siding.
I had been thinking about using a bunker and hand shoveling the coal from a gondola into the bunker but after doing a time motion study if the gondola has 800cu. ft of coal it would take 4 guys at the rate of a cubic ft/minute each 4 hours to empty it not very efficent. They would also have to throw the coal 10' or more.
So do I have to worry about cinders falling out of the ashpan while the engines cross over the pit and catching the coal/dust on fire?
Thanks, Phil

Country: USA | Posts: 1581

NE Brownstone
Crew Chief



Posted - 09/30/2008 :  2:08:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit NE Brownstone's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A lot had a spur that ran under the tower where the hopper could dump out of the rain and snow. I don't know what tye or 'brand" of tower you have or are planning to build, but that is one option. This was more common with the concrete silo type towers.



Golly, took forever to upload this pic.









Edited by - NE Brownstone on 09/30/2008 2:34:29 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 606 Go to Top of Page

desertdrover
Engineer



Posted - 09/30/2008 :  2:55:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Phil, most all towers had it's own unloading track to one side or the other of the shute.
Go to; http://home.earthlink.net/~railroad_towers_railroadmania/ for some reference pictures.





Louis
Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast
Post count: 5000 posts added to below count.

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Frederic Testard
Engineer

Premium Member


Posted - 09/30/2008 :  5:19:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It really depends on the line you're modelling, I think. On the Rio Grande Southern, hand shoveling was indeed the standard way to transfer coal from the gondola to the bunker. At Chama on the D&RGW, there was a pit and a hole with a grate where side-dump gondolas were emptied, and the coal was then loaded to the top of the tower using buckets. I imagine important mainlines must have had even more mechanized methods.


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Carrie Creek
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 10/01/2008 :  10:26:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys, especially for the tower link.
I think that maybe I did not write the ? clear enough. All of the pics I have seen has the dump located on a spur and as I do not have room for one I was planning on having it on the same track that the engines use for coaling. In fact it would be right under the engine while it was coaling. The issue is of the chance of cinders falling into the pit. Or is the ashpan when closed tight enough to prevent.
It is these safty issues I am having a problem with.
Phil



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desertdrover
Engineer



Posted - 10/01/2008 :  11:30:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I understood what you were asking, Thats why I started off with most towers had the unloading track to one side or the other. For one the ash pan would drop cinders because they didn't close that secure. And it's your railroad so if you want it there, than you are the building engineer of that railroad. If that's the only space you have for it, go with it.
But is there a prototype of what you want to do? (Not to my knowledge).



Louis
Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast
Post count: 5000 posts added to below count.

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dave1905
Fireman



Posted - 10/01/2008 :  11:56:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit dave1905's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Carrie Creek

All of the pics I have seen has the dump located on a spur and as I do not have room for one I was planning on having it on the same track that the engines use for coaling. In fact it would be right under the engine while it was coaling.

Cinders falling into the pit won't be a problem because there is a hopper car with coal in it sitting on top of the pit, so no engine will be under the coaling tower. If you can stand not being able to fuel engines for 6-8 hours at a time during a day it won't be a problem. It takes time to unload a car and run the conveyor to get the coal up to the bunker. While that is happening you can't fuel engines because the hopper car is blocking the track.


Dave Husman

Iron Men and wooden cars
Visit my website : www.wnbranch.com

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brakie
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 10/02/2008 :  10:40:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave is correct..Rethink the location of a service track or remove something that isn't needed in the area of the coaling tower..


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NE Brownstone
Crew Chief



Posted - 10/02/2008 :  12:43:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit NE Brownstone's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I used to have on of those car cyclopedia books that showed how some towers had a coal field or dump area that would be loaded by some means I don't recall, but to get the coal to the tower they used a drag scoop like a drag line's bucket and pulled it towards an open pit. I doubt it was used a lot and due to lack of space for a spur at this location on your layout kind of eliminates this possibility, but I figured it was an intersting tidbit of coaling tower info we couldn't live without.


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Carrie Creek
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 10/02/2008 :  5:03:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here are the two places that I need the coaling facilities:



As you can see there isn't much room.
Yesterday while at the LHS I ran into Bob(Sodbuster) and we discussed this and decided that maybe the best way would be to place a pit along side the track and have a conveyor belt dump the coal into the bunker, and have the crew shovel the coal into the conveyor pit.
As all of my engines are tank type and the rear of the cab roofs kind of hang over the fuel bunkers on the engines a tower might not be a good idea anyway.
After talking some more with my brother we came up with a jib crane on the coal bunker and a bucket on the end of that that would be loaded with coal and then swung over to the engine and dumped.
What do you all think of this idea?
Phil



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chooch.42
Section Hand



Posted - 10/02/2008 :  10:58:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That sounds like a great solution for servicing tank steamers ! I was thinking mainline tender engines with large coal capacities.Your solution is prototypically/economically correct for a line as you describe. Please let us see your process to the solution ! Bob C.


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NE Brownstone
Crew Chief



Posted - 10/03/2008 :  09:50:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit NE Brownstone's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I agree. I was thinking large lines also. Depending on the size of the tank engine a pile of coal with a shovel on top would work.


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Carrie Creek
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 12/11/2008 :  11:56:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been playing around with the track arrangment at Hiddenbury in part because of the coal dump issue but also I wasn't real happy with the trackage. So Iv'e come up with this which gave me a spur for the coal dump/unloading



any thoughts on this new arrangement?
Thanks Phil


Phil Z
POR (press on regardless)

Country: USA | Posts: 1581 Go to Top of Page

RDG-LNE
Engine Wiper



Posted - 01/07/2009 :  2:06:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit RDG-LNE's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Phil,
Seeing January's MR jogged my memory of your question. The NYO&W had at least two coaling towers that took delivery of coal via a track under the tower. One was at Cadosia NY, the junction of the Scranton Division) and the other was on one of the upstate NY branches (Syracuse?). See January's MR for plans of the Cadosia coaling tower.

Drew



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Carrie Creek
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 01/10/2009 :  3:25:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Drew,
Thanks for remembering my post. The tower is a nice peice of building. Although I don't think that I can load the fuel bunkers on the tank engines with a chute. On most of my models the cab roof extends too far over the bunker. The only one I have that could be fueled that way is my MDC 2-truck shay.
Thanks again,
Phil


Phil Z
POR (press on regardless)

Country: USA | Posts: 1581 Go to Top of Page

jbvb
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 01/12/2009 :  10:46:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit jbvb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Something the B&M and MEC used, at least post-WWII, was a belt conveyor that ran from a small pit under one track and dropped coal into the tender on the adjoining track. A hopper of coal was emptied into the pit, one door at a time, as coal was needed. Most of the photos I've seen are at small engine terminals, but East Fitchburg, a busy mainline/helper terminal on the B&M, had two.

One I've seen in a photo had a big name plate from Barber-Greene in Worcester. Most had electric motors, but the one in Mattawamkeag, ME appears to have had a gas engine. You could probably do a passable job in HO starting with the Walthers coal conveyor, but it still needs two parallel tracks.



James

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