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pdesigndavidson
New Hire

Posted - 02/11/2009 :  01:30:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil,

I like to see what design you have in mind for that small Mallet 0-4-4-0 Loco on page 5 of this Post, in order to Americanize it? That I believe is a Trix model?

Concerning the color of your water, from top view or side view? Typically while there is light in the sky, the color in the water will differ from each angle, but remember that the surface of water is generally a form of the reflection of the tones in the color of the sky. Wave action and wind action on the surface of the water to varying degrees will decrease this reflector, and so will the introduction of the water being frothed into foam or whitecaps or white tips.

Neil you have stated somewhere in your post that the time of this layout is to be after a landslide election, and you want the it to be wet and muddy. So I would then assume the sky color is not a bright blue day but rather sort of a mid over cast grey with possibly darker clouds of grey. If that is correct then I would introduce some of those hues and tones into your water surface and have the color have it's most saturation of hue in the valleys between the white caps. This done very subetly will probably look far better than if over done.

Also bear in mind that the water around a harbor especially in 1935 would have evidence of oil seapage and tones from urban runoff and sewage. So stay in the range of very muted colors that you feel would be in all prevalent sky light source.

Also what ever tone you choose the sky to be in, I would lightly mist / overspay / chaulk dust your bldgs. and details in and with. As again the sky light source lights everything we see, and influences All of it's coloring globally to that moment we are modeling, or are seeing standing outside and viewing the moment. Study good paintings by the masters and you will see what I mean. I work in film and TV as an art director, as well as paint plein air pantings outside. I have aquired some of my color theories from one of the best classical painters of our time, these ideas of colors and light really do come from classical painting, and also stage lighting. These concepts I have mentioned are some of the most complex at first to grasp, but really easy to understand, once you start seeing them and looking for them in nature.

Think of the sky as a big sphere that reflects the color of the sky and sun down on us. Try to understand the global nature of that influence of color and intensity to that moment. Look for it outside, you will see what I mean, it is always there.

Have fun, your Micro Diorama looks great, you are inspiring to start one of my own.

Please let me know of your ideas for the 0-4-4-0 Mallet, I am very interested.

Peter



Country: | Posts: 11 Go to Top of Page

Neil M
Fireman

Premium Member

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  09:13:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi peter,
The 0-4-4-0T is a Roco model but Trix is just the 3-rail AC division of the same company.

My plans for it aren't too ambitious. It has narrow metal european buffer beams which I will replace with american wooden beams and foot boards. I will replace the low level oil lamps with smokebox/rear of cab mounted electric lights. The boiler needs a generator in that case and i'll find somewhere to put a 9" single action air pump. The safety valve turret is high for a US engine so will be trimmed down with exposed safety valves.

The cab is a bit trickier. The fuel bunker is a covered cabinet of coal and the windows are oval shaped, which would be atypical for a US engine. The modelled floor of the cab is higher than it should be (5mm below the top of the cab sides at the side window because it has the gearbox for the rear engine below it) which makes it impractical to open the side doors on the cab and have a view through the cab.



I'd like to make the windows square on the front of the cab. To the rear i'd like to remove the back wall and have an exposed coal bunker but that would probably be impractical from an aesthetic viewpoint so i'll probably just square off the two rear windows of the cab, although i could open the wall between the windows and fill the hole with a canvas curtain (this being late in the year).

The sky is brighter in the pictures on my computer than in real life but you are probably right - it is too blue and clear. I am going for a cold clear morning in autumn but it would still be greyer than the colour i have. I would like clouds too but...

The sea is difficult to get right. From high above the sea would be black but it is very dark brownish grey on my model however i'm not satisfied with how it looks at viewing level.

Thanks for the input



Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia

Edited by - Neil M on 02/13/2009 12:06:18 PM

Country: Australia | Posts: 2486 Go to Top of Page

pdesigndavidson
New Hire

Posted - 02/14/2009 :  8:58:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil

Regarding the Colors of your Sky and Water:

Look at your Photo on Pg 6 of this Post, which shows both Sky the the Water (from an upper angle).

My point is that there is no color harmony between them; for example your sky color in this on-line photo is sort of robin's egg pastel blue, and the water is a dark appearing gray, (which you state has a brown tone to it).

Is their brown in your sky? No.

My point is there is little to no color harmony between sky and water surface, as opposed to in real life 1:1, the sea and lakes reflect the color of the sky, albeit in various degrees due to texture or no texture from waves and wind on the water's surface, as well as time of day. Obviously night time is not going to reflect a color from the sky.

Reading your words about the color of this water in real life as opposed to what ditial photography has exposed them to be, I suggest the following. Paint your water a layer which is a Blueish Gray, ( Paynes Gray is a Gray which has a cool blue cast to it), consider adding some texture to waters surface, (the amount and activity of it as you see fit) add slightly lighter tones of same color to the upper parts of water texture, I don't see white caps in this small harbor personally - just undulating water surface from wind and passing boats. Consider loosly adding some other brown and oily colored loosely applied watery stains streaking and pooling across water to suggest urban runoff and polution found in urban harbors.

Then with an air brush lightly over spray your sky lightly with a lighter value similar Blueish Gray color onto your sky. Let it come and go a bit so it has some depth and suggest an atomspehere. In my opinion I'd be trying to tone down that robin's egg blue of sky as it exists now, (at least as it appears in photo). If you don't like an air brush, then I would suggest just flat painting over all sky in this lighter Blueish Gray, possibly making sky a bit lighter at bottom and a bit more evr so slightly blue gray towards top. But again be subtle, and try to not darken bluer sky towards top of back ground.

The most important thing here is that both your Blue Gray Color used for Water and Sky need to have some of each in each other's mix so as to relate a bit too each other in Hue (color).

If you have an air brush then you can Lightly spray a sense of atmosphere on your sky, and over spray - Dust Spray your Bld'gs. a bit with the same color, especially on all upward faces to roofs and awnings to have them be ever slow slightly related to your sky / water overall mood color. Again this is to bring in influence of sky color beaming down onto landscape and bldgs.

You might wnat to try this all on a small test diorama piece, a couple of inches of water surface, scrap of building, backed by small piece of background board. Fool around until you are comfortable to apply in a bigger way. This is a test piece, and I would always do this myself, and let the results modify and influence my final applications to my layout. In fact I might do this a number of times to get my color mixes where I would want them.

I think the thing here is to understand that colors in sky and reflected into water do relate.

And to make test samples pieces and play with ideas til something looks right to your eye.

Have fun. Thanks for all your info on the Mallet Loco! I will study your suggestions closely!

Peter



Country: | Posts: 11 Go to Top of Page

Neil M
Fireman

Premium Member

Posted - 02/16/2009 :  4:37:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Peter,
Thank you. I think you are bang-on about the colour of the sky and water. I'll give it a go but I think you are right about the reason why they don't really tie together.

I think i'll give the sky a coat of blue with a tinge of grey to it and the water a coat of grey with a tinge of the same blue, because the colour of the water was never right and i think this is why. Dead black didn't look right so i tried a grey with some brown to simulate pollution but that didn't come out looking right (though more life like than black).

Unfortunately I don't have an airbrush so I can't give the lower sky a spray of grey. I tried with brushes before and I didn't wok but that was a 4.0m long sky which dried too fast!



Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia

Country: Australia | Posts: 2486 Go to Top of Page

Neil M
Fireman

Premium Member

Posted - 02/26/2009 :  7:00:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Happy days! I got a camera at the weekend so I don't need to keep taking photos with my mobile phone for the thread. An Olympus E420 with a 14-42mm lens for those who are interested I now need a tripod because I can't hand hold the camera at maximum aperture but here in one of my more recent attempts.



I think the sky is still a bit bright (some backdrop scenery would be nice) and the water hasn't been touched but mainly I'm impressed with the sharpness of the photo

I some bits from Walthers a few weeks ago and some more bits at the Glasgow Model Railway Exhibition so I have lots of stuff to keep me quite, including an Artitec harbour tug and barge and a bunch of Jordans kits so I'll be busy in the evenings for some time now!

Neil



Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia

Country: Australia | Posts: 2486 Go to Top of Page

Tyson Rayles
Moderator

Premium Member


Posted - 02/26/2009 :  9:39:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great pic Neil!


Country: USA | Posts: 12943 Go to Top of Page

Thorn Creek and Western
Fireman



Posted - 03/08/2009 :  4:33:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit Thorn Creek and Western's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Neil-
For what it's worth, I came across the following in the Feb. 1964 RMC. There was no text accompanying the plan.

-Dave


-Dave

Country: USA | Posts: 2456 Go to Top of Page

Neil M
Fireman

Premium Member

Posted - 03/08/2009 :  7:32:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Dave, that's a very cute wee locomotive. My long term plan is to have the layout running under trolley wire but i've put it on the long finger for now and am concentrating on steam.

Speaking of which, i made a good start on the 0-4-4-0T today. I'll post about it tomorrow. That plan you posted helps me because i can see the HBS was right-hand running. I was wondering which side to have the bell-pull on the loco on. Cheers



Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia

Edited by - Neil M on 03/08/2009 7:35:08 PM

Country: Australia | Posts: 2486 Go to Top of Page

Neil M
Fireman

Premium Member

Posted - 03/09/2009 :  7:37:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the plan above it looks like the driver of the loco sat on the right hand side of the locomotive, as it goes forward? Would that actually make the railroad left-hand running (same as autos, where the driver sits closest to the centre of the road).

The HBS interchanged with the Erie and the NYC and I think i remember that the Erie was left-hand running?



Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia

Country: Australia | Posts: 2486 Go to Top of Page

Thorn Creek and Western
Fireman



Posted - 03/09/2009 :  9:58:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit Thorn Creek and Western's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Neil M

In the plan above it looks like the driver of the loco sat on the right hand side of the locomotive, as it goes forward? Would that actually make the railroad left-hand running (same as autos, where the driver sits closest to the centre of the road).


Nope. The engineer leaned out the right-hand window while running right. (The left-hand side of a cab is called the fireman's side.) In the US very few roads were left-hand running. One was the Chicago and Northwestern.
-Dave



-Dave

Country: USA | Posts: 2456 Go to Top of Page

polarfred
Engine Wiper



Posted - 03/09/2009 :  10:17:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil,
Everything looks like it it is coming along just fine.
Hopefully in a year or two, I can get over your way and have a look at what you are doinmg and then go down the road for a couple Kilkennys.



Country: Canada | Posts: 408 Go to Top of Page

Neil M
Fireman

Premium Member

Posted - 03/11/2009 :  7:57:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave, thanks for clearing that up. That makes much more sense.

PolarFred, sure but a warning to you - Kilkenny Ale is called Smithwicks here. It is only called Kilkenny in countries outside Ireland/the UK. This is for marketing purposes because you can't say Smithwicks in German but Kilkenny is brewed in the Smithwicks brewery in Kilkenny city (and Dublin and a couple of other places now).

Anyway, I have started the bash on the Roco switcher over at http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25161\
If you have any ideas please feel free to add them.



Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia

Edited by - Neil M on 03/11/2009 7:58:30 PM

Country: Australia | Posts: 2486 Go to Top of Page

jatravia
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 03/17/2009 :  12:00:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just caught up with this thread - impressive! I like what you are doing and I look forward to seeing more.

Joe <><



Country: USA | Posts: 2831 Go to Top of Page

Neil M
Fireman

Premium Member

Posted - 06/09/2009 :  7:12:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't updated in what seems like ages but I haven't been getting a whole lot done on the layout.

I have been experimenting with the sky and sea colour (see pdesigndavidson's post further up the page).

I lightened the sky a bit and the water a lot, introducing the paler blue tone of the sky. Let me know what you think? I think it looks a bit to pale/white-ish/not blue enough in person but maybe it comes across better in the photos?




Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia

Country: Australia | Posts: 2486 Go to Top of Page

Neil M
Fireman

Premium Member

Posted - 09/16/2009 :  2:43:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello again everyone.

Some of the lads are down at the new warehouse moving a few boxes round.



elsewhere people are busy getting around the city



I have been trying to finish off a few scenes around the layout and have been trying out old photographs as backdrops but there is a lot to do - even on a tiny layout like this.

Thanks for looking,
Neil



Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia

Country: Australia | Posts: 2486 Go to Top of Page
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