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 Modeling Water - cracking
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Author Previous Topic: Craftsman Structure Kit Bases Topic Next Topic: SRMW Martin Machine Out West  

rtbaron
Crew Chief

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  8:38:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a area of 11" x 60" to model with either Magic Water or Envirotex. This is for a moveable area as a portable display. How much flexability is there to these resins. Do I need an excessive amount of support to prevent any movement. I've never modeled water..thought I'd seek advise from the experts. Thanks Much....Rich

Country: USA | Posts: 634

anbhurst
Moderator

Premium Member


Posted - 04/30/2007 :  9:59:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rich, . .I would think that if a base of that size(1'X 5') was reinforced with one-by's on end, there would be very little chance of movement or cracking. I haven't used a water material yet, but from what I've seen, a simple crack should make for an easy repaired. On the other hand, gatoring type cracks on more unstable surfaces would be much more difficult to repair.

quote:
Originally posted by rtbaron





Allen
Modeling the East in the West on the Northeastern Pacific RIM, Oregon, that is!

Country: USA | Posts: 7259 Go to Top of Page

bpate
Fireman



Posted - 04/30/2007 :  10:44:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rich, I'm not familiar with Magic Water or Envirotex, at least not by those names, but on an earlier layout I modelled a pond using 2 part epoxy resin. It was so strong I think you could have shot it with a .303 before causing any damage.


Country: Australia | Posts: 3090 Go to Top of Page

rfmicro
Crew Chief

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  07:10:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rich,

It has been a while since I have read any isntruction on water modeling and what I did have went the way of a crashed hard drive. The 5' axis would be my major concern as any torque in that area would have the more severe results. Now the question is how much torque is too much and I don't know the answer there. I do know that you should keep your pours thin - I believe no more than an eighth of an inch at a time and allow each pour to completely set up and harden. Again the more pours or thicker the end water scene should give added strength. Again how thick is thick enough, I don't know.

Sorry not much help here.

Regards,
Trent



Country: USA | Posts: 532 Go to Top of Page

Tabooma County Rwy
Fireman



Posted - 05/01/2007 :  10:22:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rich, I've used Envirotex several times, from ponds to harbors, and never have I had a problem with cracking. My current layout has a harbor that is probably five feet long (I'm at work now or I'd post a picture of it). This is on a removeable section and I've never had a problem with it. Envirotex is pretty tough stuff. I agree with Trent in keeping your pours thin.


Country: USA | Posts: 4630 Go to Top of Page

rtbaron
Crew Chief

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  11:09:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks to all....For Al, I'm doing exactly what you are doing on your harbor. Would appreciate
some pics when you get some time....thanks



Country: USA | Posts: 634 Go to Top of Page

rrkreitler
Crew Chief

Premium Member


Posted - 05/01/2007 :  11:13:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rich,

Have you looked into just using gloss medium over a painted base? The "depth" of modeled water is achieved by the way the base is painted/shaded. The resin on top really just supplies a shiny surface to reflect light like water. If you take the time to paint a base the proper colors and gradients, the depth will look great and then a thin final coat of gloss medium will add the shine. Nothing really there to crack becasue it is really just a few coats of paint - not a layer of resin. If you use a gel based gloss medium you can even stipple a light ripple onto the surface if you want to avoid the "sheet of glass" look. Given the size of your area I assume this is a body of water rather than a stream or river...


Thanks,
Dave K in NB

Country: USA | Posts: 873 Go to Top of Page

rtbaron
Crew Chief

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  2:26:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave,

For some reason I have this idea that paint wouldn't give me the depth that I'm looking
for....so I'm going to try resin, building it up 1/8" at a time but it will be on top of
a painted base.



Country: USA | Posts: 634 Go to Top of Page

Tabooma County Rwy
Fireman



Posted - 05/01/2007 :  2:58:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rrkreitler

Rich,

Have you looked into just using gloss medium over a painted base? The "depth" of modeled water is achieved by the way the base is painted/shaded. The resin on top really just supplies a shiny surface to reflect light like water. If you take the time to paint a base the proper colors and gradients, the depth will look great and then a thin final coat of gloss medium will add the shine. Nothing really there to crack becasue it is really just a few coats of paint - not a layer of resin. If you use a gel based gloss medium you can even stipple a light ripple onto the surface if you want to avoid the "sheet of glass" look. Given the size of your area I assume this is a body of water rather than a stream or river...



Yeah, but......a coat of gloss medium isn't thick enough to imbed the scale-sized fish....What, you mean you've never noticed the fish in my harbor, Dave?



Country: USA | Posts: 4630 Go to Top of Page

MarkF
Engineer

Premium Member


Posted - 05/01/2007 :  6:23:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rich, I've had some experience using Envirotex, which I like using. While I definitely do not consider myself an expert in this area, I will offer my experiences, although the area we did was only about 1' x 2'. We poured our water on painted masonite which was in turn secured to standard 1x4 benchwork. This was also for a portable module. We did experience 'cracking' but it was not from moving. What we realized after some research was that all surfaces MUST be at the exact same temperature at the time of the pour to ensure thorough drying.

What apparently happened to us was that since we were doing this in a heated garage in the winter, the masonite was not as warm as the Envirotex, which had been kept inside. And as it dried overnight, even though the garage was 'heated', it wasn't warm enough. The result was that is had a 'shattered' or crystalized appearance in several areas!

We contacted the manufacturer who clarified what the problem was. We did re-pour the river and the seond pour was much better.

Since you are working in such a large area, make sure that your surface is secured and will not flex, otherwise you will suffer cracking with this material as it is not flexible.


Mark

Country: USA | Posts: 13752 Go to Top of Page

rtbaron
Crew Chief

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  9:22:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks to all for your assistance....it really helps.


Country: USA | Posts: 634 Go to Top of Page

John Kerbaugh
New Hire

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  10:23:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rich,
I've used both Envirotex and Magic Water and strongly prefer Envirotex. I had very good luck on my first pour with Envirotex with no subsequent problems. There are some tricks to removing unwanted bubbles that were shown to me by experts so a bit of instruction is in order if you haven't used it before. I used Magic Water, on the other hand, on a newer project and am very unhappy with the result. I completed the pour a couple of years ago and it continues to bubble unrealistically. Not just bubbles in the water, but large blister-like bubbles on the surface. Woodland Scenics suggested spraying with denatured alcohol and that worked temporarily but the bubbles keep appearing. I'm planning now to coat the entire surface (6 in. x 5 ft.) with Water Effects to try to minimize the poor appearance. If I had it to do over again, I would certainly use Envirotex.
John in Aurora CO



Country: | Posts: 2 Go to Top of Page

John Kerbaugh
New Hire

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  12:46:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rich,
I may have misled you in my earlier post. The problematic product I used was in fact Woodland Scenics "Realistic Water" rather than Magic Water. I haven't used Magic Water although I wish I had used it rather than the WS product. I hope this didn't confuse the issue too much. I should add, however, that "Realistic Water" is a tough, flexible product. Envirotex forms a solid rock-like mass when used in a pond recreation. Sorry about the terminology error ... I was just too lazy to walk down to the basement to check the label.
John in Aurora CO



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