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robchant
Fireman

Canada
1184 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2020 :  12:21:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow ... quite the find ... any track maps of Woodman and Fennimore?
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Michael Hohn
Fireman

USA
6120 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2020 :  12:53:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A minor triumph, Ryan. Do you feel like you're narrowing in on something you might build? Or are you like me at this stage: one day what I want to do is firmly decided, and the next it's back to "I just don't know."??

As you say: you're having fun.

Mike

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2020 :  6:32:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rob, yep! Ill email some tidbits directly. Woodman and Fennimore both interchanged with standard gauge. C&NW in Fennimore, Milwaukee Road in Woodman.

Mike, I think Im like you in this way. I thought I was set on doing Robs track plan for Werley as a terminal, with freelanced structures and trains. (why prototype the structures and rolling stock when we altered the trackage so much?... this would be a great anywhere authentic-feeling layout!...) I even bought a craftsman kit of a depot Id long admired (Micro-Scale) but wouldnt ever have the opportunity to use and was all set to begin building structure and rolling stock kits in my hotel room. Then I get this book with pretty incredible info of the prototype and Im hesitating on my plan... with all this info, why not try to follow the actual Werley and the C&NW narrow gauge as closely as possible? Even though Im a PA boy and Wisconsin narrow gauge with rod engines never even crossed my mind, theres a lot going for a model of Werley. Those photos sort of charmed me.

Then... I also finally picked up the Climax book and Im back to daydreaming about Loganton and Sonestown and all he other cool Pennsylvania narrow gauge and short lines c.1900.

And... then... the Early Industry threads are really getting a ton of interest and generating so many ideas. That one-industry layout design of the wood chemical plant in Nordmont would be so amazing to build as a portable module to take to shows or meets or libraries...

Ditto a tannery one-industry.

Or a freelanced layout of Werley as a terminus.

Or build a 28-ton 3 gauge Climax and get back to Loganton...

Or...

Obviously I read and dream too much. :) But I am having an incredible amount of interesting fun. And learning a lot. You guys are a great source of knowledge and inspiration.

R
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thayer
Engine Wiper

271 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2020 :  9:05:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ugh! I saw that book on a table at the Springfield show, and for some reason wasn't in the mood to glance at it. Probably a momentary weakness due to sensory overload! Saturday was jammed. Seeing it now it is "nice" to know that I have one more thing to regret in my life!
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2020 :  09:53:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The book is pretty excellent and has been available on Amazon for <$20.

I'm going to see how much length I need to do Werley with two turnouts and a turntable for ops as I wrote out. I'm sorta proud of the operations I developed and I think it would be a neat accomplishment to build something authentic-feeling and operationally interesting with just two switches...

In the meantime, I've discovered that a photo of Loganton that shows a stack of tanbark! and a mention of a tannery somewhere in the area. Also another photo that shows the team area with a long log retaining wall filled with earth to car floor height (long enough to service two cars). Still, no additional info on the track arrangement or the "mystery building" (that's the crux!)

I'm going to keep exploring these small, prototype-based layout designs until I have a small collection. Then print them out and putt them on the wall. Then throw a dart... :)
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2020 :  1:03:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Top - Werley as a terminal with a turntable. Two turnouts. Might need more length to pull it off. I really like how simple everything is. Simple track, very few buildings, basic scenery. Tons of interesting operation scenario possibilities.

Middle - Rob's version with a spur. The more I look at it, the more I like it... And I already loved it. It takes us farther away from Werley as the inspirations, which is probably a good thing. I could see myself getting hung up and stalled on details of the real place... which shouldn't matter since we've already changed from a station to a terminus... but I know my brain...

Botttom - what happens if we move the turntable to it's own spur and give additional length to the lead?



Lunchtime pondering/doodles...

R
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2020 :  8:51:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wonder if this Werley-based plan would lose some of its charm as a standard gauge design... (or if it would even work...)

Also sorta desperately trying to find 8 of wall space for this layout somewhere in the house. It would really open up some interesting options. Our home is an 1860 brick farmhouse. Not many uninterrupted wall spans. And the window sills are only 28 off the floor. You should see what I had to do to get an eat-in farmhouse kitchen in a 10x12 room with four doors and three windows. Yes, really. And its awesome.

See... I love compact, functional, interesting designs. :)
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railman28
Fireman

USA
5551 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2020 :  12:41:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RyanAK

I wonder if this Werley-based plan would lose some of its charm as a standard gauge design... (or if it would even work...).....



I think it would work



This is Myrtle Point in Oregon the terminus of the Coos Bay and Eastern RR and Navigation Company and the inspiration for my Beaver Junction. See my track plane on page one of my current tread.

Bob

It's only make-believe

Edited by - railman28 on 01/31/2020 12:44:18 AM
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brian budeit
New Hire

USA
34 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2020 :  2:57:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ryan,

I think I would combine the bottom two plans. I like the middle one with the spur, to that add the turntable off of a spur like the bottom plan. I would also add a spur off of the spur....think like a switchback arrangement, but without the grade. Add one more industry, or a woodyard, and I think you would have a compact module that would hold your interest. You could probably cut it back to six feet and it would still work.
Another suggestion would be to run both the spur to the turntable, and run the tail track above to the turntable. This would allow running a short passenger train onto the spur, uncouple, turn the engine, and run off on the second track around the train. For more operation, you can turn the combine; some roads wanted the baggage end next to the engine, some roads didn't bother. I think building only a double ended spur would lose your interest in a short time. This track plan would allow plenty of operation, and if some sort of staging can be forced in, you have the makings of a railroad.

brian b
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2020 :  09:09:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey, all. Busy weekend. The ever fetching Samantha and I went from nothing to a fledgling Montessori-based Nature Preschool in our back yard (30 acres) in three 3-day weekends. First day with 12 kiddos is today. I'm beat...

Anyway...

Bob! I've studied that photo of Myrtle Point often. I like everything about it. I haven't been able to find out much additional information other than I believe the Coquille River is just out of view and there's a riverboat dock near by. I'd love it if you could point me to any other prototype information - additional photos, track arrangements, etc. It looks like you've made it a station on your layout rather than a terminal. I love narrow gauge, but for this 'practice' layout, HO standard gauge would be more achievable due mostly to available locomotives. Just not sure if the track geometry would still work in my available benchwork size.

Speaking of your layout and modeling... good lord! Just wonderful stuff. Your build of those moguls inspires and terrifies me at the same time. Shows that if I want a 3' HO 28-ton Climax it can be done. Just maybe not by me...

Hiya, Brian! Really appreciate the well-considered thoughts. I think the facing spur is definitely needed. Not sure yet of the turntable spur, switchback, or using the turntable as a switch to the tail track. I really am drawn to how interesting a simple two-turnout design could be for operations, but I think three will work better in the end. I'll definitely have several feet of removable staging to the right side, most likely just a cassette to feed trains and have a switching lead on that end. I've thought about fully scenicing staging... just for practice.

I do like the idea of turning the combine. What a fantastic thought that I hadn't considered. I added a caboose to my consist in the single-double-ended-siding operations walk-through to 'complicate' things and have more operations, but dropping the 'boose and adding turning the combine is a great alternative/addition. Freights get the caboose to fool with, mixed trains get the combine to turn. Nifty!

I want to maintain an open, rural feeling and avoid stuffing too much into 522' 1:1 feet of layout. My motivation is to start building something while I continue to research and get my skills to a point where I feel good jumping into a larger prototype based layout like Loganton or Sonestown. I'm also interested in these small industries that don't take much space but generate interesting options for how the layout will operate. Ice house, creamery, stock yard, pulpwood, lumber/coal dealer, feed mill... and a team track. I think I could get a lot of satisfaction out of a small handful of modest industries... both building them and operating them while until the bigger layout becomes a reality.

But... maybe one more industry. :)

BTW... was there a turntable, wye, or runaround at Blairs Mills on the TVRR?

Having fun.
R
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robchant
Fireman

Canada
1184 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2020 :  09:56:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Ryan,

I converted my version of Werley Station to standard gauge and it is not too far away from working depending on the length of the standard gauge cars. The platforms I show at the station would have to be narrowed, but there still should be room for the station between the tracks. While the 6-foot length does work, if it were me, I wouldn't go with any less than seven feet using standard gauge (and if you can find that 8-foot space, so much the better).

The most crucial measurements for me with the track plan is the length between the west turnout and the TT, the length of the TT itself (must fit your loco/combine), and the length of the cassette staging track (this will directly impact how the layout is eventually operated). Every thing else can be made to work just by adjusting the number of cars in a train's consist.

I also added a separate spur for the TT, but to my eye the design loses some of its simplicity that makes it so appealing to me. However, if you are stuck with building in a 6-foot space, adding the separate spur for the TT would make the space work better with standard gauge.

Take care,
Rob.
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Michael Hohn
Fireman

USA
6120 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2020 :  12:37:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RyanAK


BTW... was there a turntable, wye, or runaround at Blairs Mills on the TVRR?


Ryan,

I have not read Pierson's book for a while, but his maps show a wye where the TVRR met the PRR at Port Royal and a turntable at East Waterford, about 2/3rds the way to Blairs Mills. In the text he mentions a wye north of Blairs Mills and a turntable at Blairs Mills, although he does not show a turntable on his map of the town. The TVRR seems to have been generous in providing turning capability. I can skim the text to see if more info is forthcoming.



In a hypothetical train ride, he writes that the wye is located before the bridge over the Narrow's Branch. That suggests to me that you could dispense with a turntable altogether and simply run trains with the loco already turned into your terminus. Notice that there is no runaround at Blairs Mills, so the wye north of the town could also where the loco ran around the train, necessary for switching.

When you think about it, a wye is more useful than a turntable because it can be used both for turning the loco and for running around the train.

The fact that East Waterford apparently had a turntable shows that turning facilities for locos need not be limited to a terminus. Perhaps it generated enough traffic on its own to warrant an out and back from Port Royal. No runaround. I don't know how it was operated; Flying switching moves presumably.



Again, you could dispense with turning the loco if youwanted.

Assuming a turntable on your module, I prefer the arrangement where it is on a spur. Having a turntable at the end of the mainline always looks more like a model railroading trope than something done very much in the real world. I know in writing something so outrageous I'm inviting counterexamples.

Mike


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Edited by - Michael Hohn on 02/03/2020 12:42:27 PM
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2020 :  4:32:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, interesting thoughts, Mike. I was directing Brian with that question because I know he really knows the TVRR from chatting with him off-forum. Didn't mean to seem to exclude everyone else... and I'm glad you responded. It's been a while since I looked at Pierson's book as well, but I grabbed it from the library on my way out of town last night. I'll need to look closer when I get back to the hotel.

But you bring up excellent points... turning the engine doesn't need to be accomplished on-layout. My designs for Loganton, Sonestown and Walkerton, Onterio all have a turntable off-layout in staging... because turning the engine on the prototype occurred outside of the modeled footprint of the layout. (Actually a wye at Loganton and Sonestown on the prototype... but use a turntable in staging for ease of operation and space limitations...) Werley could easily have a simple turntable incorporated into staging. Or simpler yet, imply that the engine turned on approach and enter town pulling the train from the smokey end. I like it. That frees up the lead and gives back 10" or more.

And I agree. A wye is certainly more useful than a turntable. At Sonestown, there were narrow gauge and standard gauge wyes... and as far as I can tell, no other way for the standard-gauge W&NB camelbacks to run around their train. I'd love to model a wye, but I don't think I have the room even in HOn3 with tight radii curves and short switches.

Yes, presumably flying switches. Or gravity drops. Or dutch drops. Or a draft horse team. There's actually a very interesting thread going over on MRH of a modern-era layout that is a single-ended facing siding. He's modeling it with gravity drops of covered hoppers of potash by simply decoupling the power, pulling the loco into the clear, throwing the switch, and scooting the cut of cars onto the siding with his... hand! He makes a good point that with all the other intrusion into the layout to couple, decouple, flick switches, add pins or whatever during operations, that modelers are hesitant to model this prototypical practice by moving the cars with something other than the model locomotive. Makes one think. If we have a decoupling pick in our hand to separate cars, why not use it to drift it into a facing siding? Can't really do it 'flying', but if we want to get closer to the prototype (and it was pretty common in our era), why not model and operate like the prototype did it?

Turntable at the end of the mainline... I hear ya. And I have counter examples, but won't post 'em because I get what you're saying and for the most part I agree. It can get 'cute' pretty fast. I think in this instance though, I like the simplicity of the TT at the end of the line and avoiding another turnout. But I'll certainly keep your words in mind if I include the turntable.

Geared loco avoids turning the engine too... say... a Climax.

Rob! Boy, thanks for checking on the standard gauge geometry. If I can find 8' I'll consider standard gauge. Otherwise I guess I'm on the hunt for a little early-era HOn3 locomotive. Like you, I keep looking at the west end... the distance between clearing the points and the turntable. That's the crux for me. I will be able to have up to 4' of staging on a removable cassette. Maybe a little more. Which should be just about right. (If I could get 6' of layout and 6' of cassette...)

Time to print out turnout templates and buy some flex track and foamcore. We're gonna mock this sucka up!

R
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railman28
Fireman

USA
5551 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2020 :  5:21:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ryan, thank you for your kind words. If you look above the flatcars in the background between the Stock chute and the turntable you can see the Coquille River.
The only additional photo of Myrtle Point is a close-up of the turntable. I don't model the town as terminal end because I want continuous running. I feel that better shows off my engines.

It's only make-believe
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2020 :  5:41:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kind words are easy to find with such excellent modeling.

So Myrtle Point is a double-ended siding around the depot, a spur to a turntable, and the main ending at the stock chute and river. All nicely hemmed in by the Coquille. Lovely. And pretty similar arrangement to what we developed for Werley as an end-of-line terminus. Ive seen photos of the river steamer landing at Myrtle Point. Interesting modeling op there!

Whats your lead time for an HOn3 mogul or 28-ton Climax with DCC and sound? ;)
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