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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2019 :  8:34:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, Dave. I like that feature of woods industries, and Sonestown has interchange between logging and standard gauge in spades. I just ainít sure I could manage something realistic in 6 feet. Iíve often thought of doing Gum Stump and Snowshoe in dual gauge. I think it would be darn neat to have narrow gauge trains run from the upper left level down over dual-gauge tracks to interchange with a standard gauge road in the lower right.
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rca2
Engine Wiper

USA
463 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2019 :  10:12:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RyanAK

Hi, Dave. I like that feature of woods industries, and Sonestown has interchange between logging and standard gauge in spades. I just ainít sure I could manage something realistic in 6 feet....



You don't have to actually model the logging (etc.) branch line. You can imply it. Say you include a sawmill. The output loads are modeled in your operations. The log cars incoming to the sawmill don't have to be modeled. Although a short interchange track would add more operating potential. A lightly used interchange could double as a team track, and an off-spot location or RIP track. You can also have this track lead off into your staging area for staging the interchange traffic.

Modeling Arizona Eastern Railroad, Hayden Junction (1920), in On30

Edited by - rca2 on 12/27/2019 10:14:02 PM
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brian budeit
New Hire

USA
34 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2019 :  11:07:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another suggestion would be to model what were known as "novelty mills". Spokes, hubs, handles, chair rungs, insulator pins, barrel staves, etc. Small operations that usually looked like a barn with a smokestack. A lot of them received wood from farmers, by wagon, and shipped the finished products by rail. Some didn't have sidings, but used the local team tracks for delivery. You could have several of them in your diorama, maybe one having a spur, and one using the team track.
I liked the tannery idea, and not all tanneries were that large, at least up into the 1890's. The Leas & McVitty tannery on the EBT, and the Spanogle tannery on the Tuscarora Valley were definitely model size. What took up space were the bark storage sheds, large pole buildings. These could be modeled off layout. Tannneries took in bark, lime and other tanning chemicals, and hides, and shipped out the finished leather and even the fleshings, the residue scraped from the hides. This nasty by product was used to make animal feed.
I think six feet could give you a good starting point, and with small cars and a geared locomotive, like the NWSL Dunkirk Gilbert patent engine, you could have a lot of fun shuffling cars around. Add a "fiddle yard", British for a staging yard, and you could have the scheduled passenger train come through, requiring the switcher to clear the main track.

brian b
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2019 :  12:23:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This stuff is fun, yeah?

rea2 - Iíll definitely give another thought to one of the wood industry scenes and only modeling outbound product. I get caught up in narrow gauge logging, so it will take some restraint. Maybe a short section of Ďdecorativeí 3í track with a few log cars to imply a NG logging railway delivering logs. Or as Brian suggests, a small industry or specialty mill that gets logs via horse from local wood lot owners. I actually believe a good portion of the logs coming to the mill in Loganton were delivered by horse team due to its location Ďup hillí of the large timber tracts and large mill in White Deer. Theres also a lack of photographic evidence of log cars in Loganton. The WD&L was actually a common carrier. There was a separate logging railway that shared trackage and delivered logs to the mill in White Deer.

Actually, that assumption may solve my building size problem for the mill in Loganton. Horse teams would deliver smaller logs than rail. Hmmm...

Brian, great suggestions. Iím liking the novelty mill idea, especially having one utilize the team track. I think team tracks are generally underrepresented as an industry point. LCL, sure. But so many small off-track industries used them as their link to markets.

A tannery is still a great one-industry possibility. And I gotta review the Tuscarora book you prompted me to buy all those months ago.

Locomotives... if narrow gauge geared, definitely a Dunkirk. I need one for Sonestown eventually. But itíll be tough to not go down the rabbit hole of building that 28-ton 3í Climax...

If standard gauge, not sure what Iíll do for a small loco. Open to suggestions.

Also... still considering a PNW location. Just unfamiliar with the railroad history there.

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deemery
Fireman

USA
8255 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2019 :  1:12:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
(previous attempt got eaten) I think there's at least one picture of a clothespin mill, and a whole volume on the tannery industry, in the PA Logging RR Era series of books.

dave

Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)
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brian budeit
New Hire

USA
34 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2019 :  2:53:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Deemery is correct, Tanbark Alchohol & Lumber covered the large tanning operations that eventually became US Leather Corp.
As its easy to spend others money, your suggestion for a small standard gauge engine: When the El railroads in Chicago and NYC electrified, lots of the forney steamers were sold to industries as switchers. Pa had many, the lumber books have pictures of them. MTS imported brass models of the forneys, and another company offered ones rejected by MTS because of crooked cylinders. These are painted black. I picked up an HON3 version, and it runs very well. Crooked cylinders not that hard to correct. The actual MTS engine has better detail, but sells for more. Anyway, one would be very suitable for your layout/ diorama, and el engines were also used in the pacific northwest, and even in Alaska. Several still remain up there.
To bring up tanneries again, after tree stands for bark were cut, and especially after the chestnut blight, extract plants came about, to replace the hemlock and chestnut bark no longer available. Instead of cars of bark, you could have tank cars deliver extract to a modeled tannery.
Yep, this stuff sure is fun!

brian b
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Bernd
Fireman

USA
3537 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2019 :  4:59:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bernd's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Speaking of tanning, tannin bark and hides, how about the "Sole Leather Line" or better known as the Wellsville, Addison & Galeton RR of southern NY/northern PA?

https://www.american-rails.com/wag.html

http://www.alleganyhistory.org/culture/transportation/railroads/wellsville-addison-a-galeton-railroad/2031-sole-leather-line-by-edward-a-lewis

Bernd

WWG1WGA
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2019 :  5:16:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh! More short lines to research! That looks like an interesting one, Bernd!

Forney is a great suggestion, Brian. Porter crossed my mind too. I was initially thinking 4-4-0 or Mogul for standard gauge... even a camelback like the Williamsport & North Branch used at Sonestown. But they sure use up track space on a 6í layout. I keep coming back to narrow gauge Dunkirk or Climax.
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2019 :  6:07:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Iíve been researching for about a year on these small, early lines. Iíd say my main frustration is lack of track maps of the prototypes to get a sense of how small stations were laid out. Iíve been piecing together the trackage in Loganton and Sonestown from period photographs, visits to the site, and google maps satellite view. Oh for a few good maps of small, early short line stations!
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brian budeit
New Hire

USA
34 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2019 :  7:14:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sometimes the prototype track arrangements can be disappointing for a modeler. During the time period we're discussing, poling and flying switches, or "dutch drops" were common, especially on narrow gauges. On the TVRR, almost all station tracks pointed south. Does that mean operations involved running the train south, then on the way back dropping cars as the train went north, or doing flying switches as the train went south? Chances are, lots of flying switches, something we can't do in model form. I've tried to do model poling, but a long pole is needed to keep from shorting as the engine comes to the insulated part of the switch.
My model railroad has more double ended sidings than the prototype EBT or TVRR ever had. I have more fun switching, being able to run around cars to switch different industries. So my modeled locations aren't prototype as far as track layout, but I'll take the inaccuracy, if it makes for better operations.

brian b
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robchant
Fireman

Canada
1184 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2019 :  7:22:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Brian,

You make an excellent point about real-world track arrangements in the early days, and on narrow gauge railways in particular. I have studied a few track diagrams/charts in the past that had me scratching my head trying to determine how a station was switched, or how a train was turned for the return trip. It wasn't until I was told about the use of flying switches that I finally figured it out. It was an eye-opener to see how common this practice was used back in the day.

Take care,
Rob.
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2019 :  11:10:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh, Iím aware of the prototypical practices and that the track arrangements could disappoint from a modeling perspective and might need to be altered. But man Iíd still love to see them. Or more/better period photos. Just to know. And know what I need to change to make things work on a layout.

BTW... John Armstrong suggests flying switches could be modeled with a flywheel-equipped box car or use of grades on the layout. That is NOT for THIS guy to attempt!!
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jbvb
Fireman

USA
6357 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2019 :  08:56:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit jbvb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I mentioned the B&M and other New England RRs in your other thread in part because track charts are available inexpensively. See nmro.org; though the descriptions aren't comprehensive, they are available via download for less than on CD. But the coverage leans heavily toward Class 1 RRs. They could afford the staff, needed them for engineering decisions and made their paper available (officially or back door) when it was no longer needed.
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robchant
Fireman

Canada
1184 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2019 :  09:20:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Ryan,

About two years ago I was asked to look at a Pennsylvania branch line as a possible subject for a bedroom sized layout. At the time, I felt the branch didn't offer the level of operation that the owner was seeking, although it definitely had the charm he wanted. I am now wondering if it might be to your liking. The line was the Warwick Branch of the Wilmington & Northern RR which ran from Elverson to Saint Peters, PA.

Here's the description I found on Abandonedrails.com: "This short spur line branched from the Wilmington and Northern's line at Elverson, and headed east to serve a black granite quarry at Saint Peters. The line passed through the small town of Warwick, which gave this branch line its name. The line once connected with the end of The Delaware River and Lancaster Railroad at Saint Peter's via a switchback."

There is also a note on the site from Alvin Roth: "I have written a book titled Wilmington and Northern Railroad, A Pictorial History. If you are interested contact at rothcal@yahoo.com. It has 120 pages and reasonably priced. It includes eight pages for the Warwick branch."

Here's the URL: The Warwick Branch

Check out other Pennsylvania branch lines here: Pennsylvania

On a side note, the October 1952 issue of MR has drawings for a W&NRR 4-4-0.

Take care,
Rob.

Edited by - robchant on 12/29/2019 09:55:43 AM
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RyanAK
Engine Wiper

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2019 :  11:01:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
jbvb - thanks for the suggestions. Iíll definitely have a look at the NMRO site. New England is definitely an interest, so B&M or other prototypes in the region might be great. Especially if there are track charts to explore. Class I is ok... it just needs to be a tiny backwater of a Class I.

Rob, you alway seem to have another interesting research rabbit hole for me to go down. Thanks for the suggestion. Pennsylvania was liberally covered with nifty short lines or neat branches. So much to explore. Thank you.

R
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