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Bernd
Fireman

USA
3597 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2019 :  07:42:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bernd's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Artman

I'm interested in what you guys know about the minimum distance between the rails in a freight yard.

While fiddling with the scale of my Palmerston Yard; I measured a minimum distance of 6 feet between two rails, but man, that's tight!

So I set things up here . . .



6 feet would not let this man walk between the cars without standing sideways . . . so I re-calibrated to 8 feet between the rails and this seems to work.

I wonder if the minimum distance had as much to do with being able to have a man walk between the cars as it did in avoiding cars clipping each other.

Anyway, just wondering if distances were arbitrary, what say you?




Rob,

NMRA minimum standard between straight tracks: https://www.nmra.org/s-8-track-centers

Scroll down to HO. It'll give you the standards.

Bernd

WWG1WGA
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Artman
Engine Wiper

Canada
280 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2019 :  1:22:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit Artman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Excellent, Thanks Bernd!

Robert Wanka
http://www.robertwanka.com
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jbvb
Fireman

USA
6469 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2019 :  2:03:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit jbvb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hopper cars were often built smaller than the main line clearance diagram, because coal is denser than most things shipped in boxcars etc. The normal steam-era center-to-center minimum was 13 feet, leaving 8 feet 3.5 inches between two running rails.
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Artman
Engine Wiper

Canada
280 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2019 :  7:21:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Artman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks James,

That is interesting . . . considering I came up with 8 feet as a minimum distance between parallel rails, based on nothing more than that little model demo I shot above. The allowance of a man being able to walk between the cars somewhat safely was the logic I was toying with. Of course I suppose its no coincidence that working conditions would be taking the human factor into account along with the requirements of the rolling stock dimensions.

This is why I enjoy modelling as much as I do; you learn something new and interesting almost everyday!



Robert Wanka
http://www.robertwanka.com
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Artman
Engine Wiper

Canada
280 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2019 :  5:09:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Artman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Still calculating the Palmerston yard layout for my 36 x 20 inch diorama.

I began by comparing the Flex HO track Code 85, with the real stuff . . . visiting some Real Railroad tie making websites, the measurement of 9 inches wide 8 feet long was acquired. The HO flex track matches that exactly;as do the (HO scale) wooden ties in my possession.



I should (and I may) get out there with my tape measure and confirm this upon the tracks not far from where I live.

Until then however, I'll keep going with what I've presently found out. (I'm going to hand lay my tracks, so going full 'Prototype' is something I might consider doing) But, so far, it appears that the HO track is close to prototypical in all the ways that matter.




This piece measures exactly 36 inches . . . perfect measure from end to end of my diorama.

So . . . if I'm going to hand lay my track I counted 146 ties in this 36 inch flex track section.

Here's the yard with track to scale . . .




I callculate that I will need some 976 ties (give or take)

So I pulled out a bag-o-ties I'd purchased some years ago.





Counted 1018 [:-angel]

Okay, so this is good

More later.

Robert Wanka
http://www.robertwanka.com
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jbvb
Fireman

USA
6469 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2019 :  11:32:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit jbvb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Where a RR had the room, and expected employees to be working between tracks occupied by cars, they'd use 15 foot or even 16 foot track centers. If I was between two cuts of cars on 13' track centers, I'd need to turn sideways should one move unexpectedly, and I'd have a very tense interval if both sides were moving.

Tie spacing also varied with the expected speeds and loads on track. Over the last century, main line tie center-to-center distance shrank to the current 18" as equipment got heavier and speeds increased. But 22-24" is still used for light-duty track, and 1940s branch line yards might have used a few inches more. CN historical documents might have details.
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Ensign
Fireman

Canada
8784 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2019 :  6:43:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rob, those are the nicest little arranged and counted piles of railroad ties I have ever seen!
Even the little pile of just 18 is cute.
Now it's what we do with those nice little arranged piles that really counts!
Get back to work!

Greg Shinnie
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Artman
Engine Wiper

Canada
280 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2019 :  08:36:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit Artman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jbvb

Where a RR had the room, and expected employees to be working between tracks occupied by cars, they'd use 15 foot or even 16 foot track centers. If I was between two cuts of cars on 13' track centers, I'd need to turn sideways should one move unexpectedly, and I'd have a very tense interval if both sides were moving.

Tie spacing also varied with the expected speeds and loads on track. Over the last century, main line tie center-to-center distance shrank to the current 18" as equipment got heavier and speeds increased. But 22-24" is still used for light-duty track, and 1940s branch line yards might have used a few inches more. CN historical documents might have details.



Thank's James, that's great information from track side! I'll start looking around to connect with some CN historical sites on the internet, I could learn a few more things there no doubt!

Robert Wanka
http://www.robertwanka.com
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Artman
Engine Wiper

Canada
280 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2019 :  08:57:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit Artman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ensign

Rob, those are the nicest little arranged and counted piles of railroad ties I have ever seen!
Even the little pile of just 18 is cute.
Now it's what we do with those nice little arranged piles that really counts!
Get back to work!

Greg Shinnie



I hear you Greg . . .

It's been a slow build to be sure . . .

Currently I'm playing with the diorama's dimensions.


This measures 48 x 25 inches vs. the 36 x 20 inch, originally being considered.

Upside to this dimension is that I won't be cutting off any of the turnouts like I would be in the 36 x 20 one . . . downside however, is the size, it's getting clumsy big.

And so [:-banghead] I'm thinking about which way to go with it.

As well, I just completed this detailed sketch for my YouTube video on the Sphinx sculpture. 4th Episode is nearly ready to be uploaded.

Many irons in the fire slow things down.



Robert Wanka
http://www.robertwanka.com

Edited by - Artman on 02/20/2019 09:04:33 AM
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cn-scale
New Hire

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2019 :  6:46:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit cn-scale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Robert - I haven't posted very much but I have been following and enjoying the details of this build.

I also thought I'd mention (in case you weren't already aware of it) that Harold Kinze recorded a lot of footage around Palmerston in 1956, and there is a 90-second clip of locomotive 2629 being fueled at the Palmerston coal tower. Ian Wilson is offering the footage as a bonus to anyone who purchases his latest book (ianwilsonauthor.com).

The clip is pretty dark, so it's difficult to pick out much detail (at least not as much as you've found in photos already) but it does show that when the chute is opened and coal starts to pour down into the tender, the operator opens a valve to add a stream of water on to the coal. Presumably this was to minimize dust? Anyway, I just thought I'd mention it in case you're interested -- not that I'm suggesting you need to add water hoses to your model!
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Artman
Engine Wiper

Canada
280 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2019 :  4:46:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Artman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey Chris!
I am presently waiting for my copy of Ian Wilson's 'Speed Graphics & Steam 1958 Vol. 2; to be delivered. I have not seen the video you mentioned. I am however, surprised to hear that water was used while the coal was tumbling down the chute into the tender! I wonder if that's what these hoses were for?




Robert Wanka
http://www.robertwanka.com
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cn-scale
New Hire

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2019 :  10:34:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit cn-scale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The hose you're pointing at seems too big - I would guess that's a sand hose?
Maybe the water hose was run along the underside of the catwalk railing making it virtually invisible in photos.

If you've purchased Ian's book just send him an email and he should give you access to the video. Hopefully he won't mind if I post a screenshot here just to illustrate what I'm talking about.


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Artman
Engine Wiper

Canada
280 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2019 :  10:48:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Artman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Received Ian's book today. I watched the video showing the water cascading over the coal. You are right, my previous picture was a close-up of the sand pipes.

From my files I pulled this close-up . . . that clearly shows the pipe that carried the water.




Robert Wanka
http://www.robertwanka.com
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deemery
Fireman

USA
8423 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2019 :  09:40:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looking at that exposed piping makes me wonder what they did in the winter. Wouldn't those pipes freeze?

dave

Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)
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Bernd
Fireman

USA
3597 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2019 :  11:44:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bernd's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'd question the water treatment also. I wonder if they used an oil spray or maybe kerosene? This is what was done at the breakers when loading coal hoppers. The coal would get sprayed with an oil as it went down the chute into the hopper.

Bernd

WWG1WGA
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