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SAFN SAAP
Engine Wiper
USA
136 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2012 : 1:48:34 PM
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Hey Y'all,
Looking at different paints to use on craftsman kits to supplement my Dr. Ben's agents. The only real choice for railroad acrylics out there are Polly S and Model Flex paints. I'm primarily building wood craftsman kits and some hydrocal. How does the wood react with the Polly S and or Model Flex acrylics? Anything special need to be done before using them?
Thanks,
Manny |
"Reflecting the Frisco influence in the railroads of the Texas Hill Country" |
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SAFN SAAP
Engine Wiper
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 6:39:57 PM
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No responses? Please help a novice modeler in the world of craftsman kits out. I have a few videos coming and will be getting the Scott Mason video series next week. I'm hoping they will help.
Thanks y'all.
Manny |
"Reflecting the Frisco influence in the railroads of the Texas Hill Country" |
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ETinBH
Fireman
USA
4242 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 7:00:17 PM
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| Just slop them on - they are both good paints - most craft paints will work as will as other modeling piants |
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dallas_m
Fireman
USA
3013 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 7:12:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SAFN SAAP
The only real choice for railroad acrylics out there are Polly S and Model Flex paints.
Those are the only ones "labeled" for Model Railroad use, but you can also use various craft store acrylics ... Vallejo and Reaper make very nice, finely pigmented acrylics for military modelers and/or miniaturists, etc.
I held back, because I don't do as much stuff with wood as many of the guys here ... but since the response has been minimal, here's my stupid input: 
-- If some of the "wood" color is going to show through, stain your wood first. Mike Chambers, for whom this sub-forum is named, posted some handy stuff on his web site:
http://homepage.mac.com/michael21/CMShome/tutorialsandhow-.html
(Mike shows a couple types of stains there. I tend to favor the alcohol-based "ink" stains, because they dry quickly. There's a little more leg-work there to chase down the materials, but worth it IMO.)
-- If your wood will simply be painted, you can prime it with automotive from a rattle-can (spray can). A lot of guys here like the cheapo Walmart primer ... I tend to favor Rustoleum Automotive spray primer. Use multiple light passes, rather than trying to get an opaque coat in a single pass (so you don't go too heavy on the paint).
-- If you do use a sprayed-on primer, then you can simply brush on any acrylics that you like without a lot of concern.
-- If you don't use a primer and brush paint on bare wood, you'll have to pay some attention to the potential for warping ... ESPECIALLY on sheet material (like scribed siding, etc, that comes on a sheet, or large, flat, thin surface). If you only paint one side of that, it will tend to warp. There are various tricks for using bracing ... laying parts flat, covering with wax paper and adding weight until dry, etc.
So, quick, simple approach to getting started (in my stupid opinion):
-- Stain or prime your wood, let it dry ...
-- Have fun with acrylics!
quote:
Originally posted by SAFN SAAP
How does the wood react with the Polly S and or Model Flex acrylics?
There's no notable "reaction" ... nothing exciting like the stripwood bursting into flames or anything! [:-hot] The only thing to really note is that acrylics are thinned with water, and wood will swell and/or warp when wet. Thus the notes about primer and stain. If you choose to simply brush-on some paint, give it some light coats, let it dry ... check for warping and do some further reading/adjustment or questions here if needed.  |
Edited by - dallas_m on 04/24/2012 7:20:28 PM |
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jbvb
Fireman
USA
1865 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 10:42:29 PM
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| I didn't say anything because I have no direct experience painting thin wood parts with water-based paints. But what Dallas says rings true to me. The only thing I'd add is that the spray primer coat he talks about is solvent-based - water based primer would have the same issues as a single water-based finish coat. |
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CN6401
Crew Chief
Canada
911 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 10:42:58 PM
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Manny,
Please don't take this the wrong way, How long have you been modelling?
Do you have access to a Local Hobby Shop (LHS)? Most shops have a wide variety of Acrylic, Enamel and solvent based paints that can all be used in railroading.
-Most Acrylics are water based and like Dallas said they are mixed or thinned with water but some can be thinned with 70 or 90% rubbing/denatured alcohol. For example I use Tamyia acrylics and they can be thinned with alcohol or water, I choose 90% alcohol.
For some reason wood does not warp when using alcohol.
There is even Craft Paints you can get from Walmart. These are thinned with water only. The problem with these paints is that they are not full bodied paints, they are translucent.
-Enamel paints such as Testors can be thinned or cleaned up with Varsol.
-Solvent based paints are a form of Lacquer, such as Floquil and Scalecoat, which are both meant for railroad use. If your not careful with these solvent paints hey can seriously damage any plastics. The solvent tends to melt the plastic surface.
-I even use some latex house paints for my railroad models.
The main thing to keep in mind is to test the paints on a scrap piece of the model before you jump right in and paint your model.
I hope this helps.
Ralph |
Growing old is mandatory . . . growing up is optional
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A Touch of Yesterday©..............Weathered Rail Cars. |
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SAFN SAAP
Engine Wiper
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 01:43:54 AM
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I don't take offense. I'm 42 and have been modeling since I was 9 years old, with multiple periods of inactivity. All building kits prior to now have been plastic kits. I've turned completely away and have gone to wood and some hydrocal kits. I'm a complete noob when it comes to painting techniques for these kits. That's why I am asking those questions. We really don't have any specific hobby shops here in San Antonio, other than Hobbytown USA and Dibbles. They are both universals, with generic information, albeit Dibble's might offer a little bit more.
I know that acrylics can be used on wood. I should have been clearer in my line of questioning. What affect does the paint have on the modeling wood? Some have shared that information. I've already experienced the warping issue and it resulted in a small failure, so I figured I could ask here for some help. I'm familiar with what paints are out there. It's just how they react with the basswood, and what techniques to use to prevent that issue.
Hope I was clearer than mud.
Thanks,
Manny |
"Reflecting the Frisco influence in the railroads of the Texas Hill Country" |
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Neil M
Fireman
Australia
2173 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 02:01:45 AM
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If you do have problems with the wood warping because of the thinned down paint then painting all sides of the wood will help reduce that as all sides of the wood will expand approximately equally.
If the paint is still damp and you can see it warping you can try 'painting' more water onto the inside of the curve to encourage it to 'catch up' with the outside. |
Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia |
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andykins
Fireman
United Kingdom
3879 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 06:45:42 AM
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i did write a post last night, but the laptop went a bit strange and failed to post.
id im painting "new" wood, i.e no flakes of paint, just solid colour, i sprey the wood with a cheap trade primer. ive found that trade sprey paints put out way to much paint for plastic an the like, but with wood it soaks it all up, and i get ZERO warping.
if i want a little chipping.worn paints etc i'll stain the wood with whatever it is i ued to get whatever colour im going for, then dry brush on the paint on top, i normaly thin with a little alcohol, i have some 99% that drys very quickl and has no warping, but i normaly use 70% again with little or no warping (and the dry brushing is a good cheat for chipping flaking paint, i seemed to fool a few people with some boxcars i built.. :D)
when i have painted neat paint onto bare wood, i stay a mile away from water and use just a drop or two of alcohol to thin, and ive done what neil sudgests, painiting on the inside to try and catch up with any warping, and when ive not been fast enough, a day or two between two sheets of glass have soleved it, i also saw someone on the forum put a desk lamp a couple inches away from some very warped painted wood and that dried them out and flatend them really well! |
"Is it really "rivet counting" if it's regarding NBW castings?"
Unknown |
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kruisyk
Crew Chief
USA
590 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 12:41:01 PM
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Manny: The Scotty Mason DVDs are first rate and Volume I will get you going ASAP. They are the best out there. A close second is Doug Foscale's "Building a Wood Structure Kit From Start to Finish." As a beginner, check out Foscale's smaller kits. Great for starting out.
At the risk of repeating others, you DEFINITELY want to brace your walls before painting to minimize the warping. As Scott says, you can never over-brace (well...almost never...if you overdo it without looking ahead at the way the walls/roof go together some of your extra bracing will end up in the way and have to be cut out...don't ask me how I know!)
Go with the cheaper craft store paints as readily as you'd reach for Polly Scale. They're cheaper and usually far more available in this age of disappearing hobby shops. Far more colors available, too. Just zip in to a Michael's or Hobby Lobby or whatever you've got down there in "San Antone".
Vallejo paints are great for detail parts ...too expensive and in too small a quantity for general application on walls.
I've been experimenting with some drybrush techniques for getting the peeling paint effect rather than the ol' rubber-cement-and-tape routine, which always looks out of scale to me. I'm very pleased with the results I got a few days ago on an abandoned switching tower kit from AMB. I don't have access to my pix here at work, but if you'd like I'll send you what I'm working on. Again, Scott's DVDs will cover this.
I've also begun trying my hand at hydrocal. I just got one of Randy Pepprock's (Downtown Deco) kits and he was kind enough to also send along some "scrap" walls to experiment on. Had great success trying out the techniques in his tutorial this weekend. If you're interested I'll send you a pic of my "first effort". If you haven't read his tutorial on building hydrocal kits check it out on Downtown Deco's website...it's outstanding. It may also appear as a thread here at RR-Line...I don't recall.
Disclaimer...all of the above are just my humble opinion. There are far more accomplished builders on the forum here than I.
Now get going on the Pickle Works!
Dave K.
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"Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate." |
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kruisyk
Crew Chief
USA
590 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 12:43:08 PM
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Almost forgot...I do the rattle-can priming, also. Either white or gray, depending on what wall color will go on top of it.
DK |
"Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate." |
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kruisyk
Crew Chief
USA
590 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 2:05:47 PM
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Another addendum: Until recently I've stuck to crafstman kits from FOS, Scott Mason, South River, and FSM. Lately, with the number of structures needed on the club I've joined, I've gone to more "economical" kits by the likes of AMB and Branchline. Enjoyable kits and perfectly fine, but I've noticed the wood they use tends to be softer and, thus, much more prone to warping (and breaking if not careful!). Any thoughts from the forum?
Dave K. |
"Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate." |
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SAFN SAAP
Engine Wiper
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 2:37:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kruisyk
Another addendum: Until recently I've stuck to crafstman kits from FOS, Scott Mason, South River, and FSM. Lately, with the number of structures needed on the club I've joined, I've gone to more "economical" kits by the likes of AMB and Branchline. Enjoyable kits and perfectly fine, but I've noticed the wood they use tends to be softer and, thus, much more prone to warping (and breaking if not careful!). Any thoughts from the forum?
Dave K.
I like the AMB kits and have a few Branchline's as well. I did the AMB Lake Junction Depot this weekend and had an accident that destroyed it, but I experienced the warping when using stains. This is in part why I asked this initial question. It is also why I purchased a ton of Polly S paint, but needed to hear some responses here first.
There has to be a way to allow stains to be applied and no warping. I'm still looking for that answer.
Anyone? |
"Reflecting the Frisco influence in the railroads of the Texas Hill Country" |
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brownbr
Crew Chief
USA
701 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 4:50:34 PM
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| For wood I have become a Rembrandt chalk convert. There may be a help group for this condition. |
Bryan |
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dallas_m
Fireman
USA
3013 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 8:41:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SAFN SAAP
There has to be a way to allow stains to be applied and no warping. I'm still looking for that answer. Anyone?
Use Mike Chamber's INK stain formulas and mix them with 91% alcohol to minimize warping:
http://homepage.mac.com/michael21/CMShome/tutorialsandhow-.html
You can dip stripwood in the stain, lay it out over some wax paper covered in paper towels (to soak up any excess and keep the underlying surface clean) ... and it'll be ready to use in a couple of hours. (I lay mine on a cookie sheet on top of the gas oven, which is a little warmer than room temp due to the pilot burner.)
Check the color after the strips have dried for an hour (it lightens as it dries) ... and dip again if desired.
Note: If you're doing SHEET material, or really thin, wide strips ... stain the strips or sheets, lay them out on wax paper covered with paper towels ... then put another layer of paper towels and wax paper on top and lay a heavy book over the strips. Unless you're in a really cold, damp basement or a cave or something, the alcohol stain is going to dry in far less than an hour ... I let strips set a couple hours before proceeding and consider that very fast ... far faster than any water-based stain ...
Another option: The wipe-on/wipe-off Minwax, etc. stains from the hardware store ... but definitely NOT the water-based ones!
Note, the solvent-based stains are going to have nasty odors and health risks ... the stains that Mike formulated use rubbing alcohol, which is much, much milder stuff and it won't leave any lingering stench in your workspace. |
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k27rgs
Fireman
Australia
4257 Posts |
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Topic |
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Polly S & Model Flex Acrylic reaction to wood kits
