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railman28
Fireman

USA
5330 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  05:40:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deemery

quote:
Originally posted by Schoolmaster

Looking good. Are you going to put any asbestos lagging on the steam-line?

When did asbestos lagging come into common practice?

dave


In the east, not earlier than about 1914. Wide spread usage in the mid-20s, were you see it start to be mentioned in Tech. books.

It's only make-believe
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R.BOUDREAUX
Fireman

USA
1612 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  07:00:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
David,

You are doing a great job on this.

It looks real good.

Rich
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Schoolmaster
Fireman

USA
1581 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  09:00:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
railman28. I admit to being unfamiliar with uS preactice, but asbestos has been used for thousands of years in Europe. It was woven into a variety of products in the Middle Ages, and was used from the start of the Industrial Revolution for boiler and steam-pipe lagging in both land and marine applications. In locomotive use, it replaced the early wooden planks, and later metal oxide blocks in the nineteenth century.
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CVSNE
Crew Chief

632 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  09:19:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit CVSNE's Homepage  Send CVSNE a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deemery

quote:
Originally posted by Schoolmaster

Looking good. Are you going to put any asbestos lagging on the steam-line?

When did asbestos lagging come into common practice?

dave



With the introduction of boilers - which means about the mid-19th century as a rough guide. Asbestos was used for many other purposes for hundreds of years - including fireproofing for safes!

Marty

Marty McGuirk
Manassas, VA
www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com
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railman28
Fireman

USA
5330 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  09:25:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gentleman,
I was referring pacifically to asbestos PIPE LAGGING. It was probably first used on navel vessels.

It's only make-believe
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deemery
Fireman

USA
7961 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  09:31:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by railman28

Gentleman,
I was referring pacifically to asbestos PIPE LAGGING. It was probably first used on navel vessels.


And that's the question I should have asked. Somewhere (Chuck Doan, maybe?) I read that someone glued tissue to pipes to simulate the lagging. That should work on HO, I may try it.

dave

Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)
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TRAINS1941
Engineer

USA
11843 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  09:32:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave the boiler came out nice. Nice weathering.

Jerry

Jerry

"And in the end, itís not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." A. Lincoln
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Schoolmaster
Fireman

USA
1581 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  09:39:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Again, I believe that asbestos pipe lagging was used in marine and industrial applications in the nineteenth century.

Railman28. Do you have some source(s) for your dates? I have it used in early British Torpedo Boat Destroyer engine rooms at the end of the nineteenth century and I do not think it was invented for that purpose.

If I'm wrong in this, I would like to know.

EDIT: I have since found one reference to 1886 as a date for asbestos pipe lagging development.

I'm not trying to cause problems, I'm REALLY one of those inquiring minds who want to know (it right).

Edited by - Schoolmaster on 02/18/2012 09:57:37 AM
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CVSNE
Crew Chief

632 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  09:55:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit CVSNE's Homepage  Send CVSNE a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
1828 was the first US patent issued for use of asbestos in steam boiler lagging:
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/Asbestos.html#b

This was the year after the B&O Railroad was chartered.

Since the first US steam-powered naval vessels were the Fulton Steam Batteries introduced in 1814, there were naval vessels without (1) a patented asbestos lagging OR (2) they used asbestos but not in an application that justified the 1828 patent; or (3) the Steam Batteries and 1828 lagging patent show the same use but for some reason the lagging wasn't patented until 14 years after the vessels were built.

The only way to confirm this would be comparing the specs and drawings of the early Steam Batteries and compare that with the patent drawing, which is available through the US Patent office to confirm which.

Is that a detailed enough answer? [:-banghead]

Marty McGuirk
Manassas, VA
www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com

Edited by - CVSNE on 02/18/2012 09:59:38 AM
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Schoolmaster
Fireman

USA
1581 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  10:00:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
CVSNE

I think he's distinguishing between boiler lagging and pipe lagging, which it appears was developed later.
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CVSNE
Crew Chief

632 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  10:15:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit CVSNE's Homepage  Send CVSNE a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Schoolmaster

CVSNE

I think he's distinguishing between boiler lagging and pipe lagging, which it appears was developed later.



Pipe lagging - I can't find a patent for it specifically, and I don't have time right now. I assume it was used in conjunction with the steam supply piping on early steam ships.

H. W. Johns introduced a line of commercially available asbestos fire-proof roofing material in 1858 - by 1886 the Manville Covering Company had introduced a line of "asbestocel" lagging - see this web page for an ad:

http://reviews.ebay.com/Asbestos-Pipe-Insulation-and-Labels?ugid=10000000000879095

The two companies merged, becoming "Johns-Manville" - they provided pipe lagging for the US Navy for many, many years.

I would say for Dave's purposes he can lag his pipes, secure in the knowledge that asbestos lagging did indeed exist in his era.

And that stuff a lot of model railroader call "tarpaper" roofing is actually "Fireproof asbestos roofing sheets."

Marty


Marty McGuirk
Manassas, VA
www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com
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deemery
Fireman

USA
7961 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  1:13:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don Ball is usually pretty authoritative on late 19th century technology. Seems there's a relative consensus that asbestos pipe lagging was in use by the 1890s. So I'll add it, and experiment with tissue paper. I should mention, by the way, that the Plastruct 1/16" ABS rod has a metal (steel? -it's hard to cut) center, which keeps it from kinking when I try to bend it. That's a real advantage for this use over the Evergreen hollow 1/16" styrene rod.

dave
---
From: "Don Ball" <dlball1899@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Steam pipe lagging
Date: February 18, 2012 12:38:51 PM EST
To: "'David Emery'" <emery@grebyn.com>

Hi, Dave.
When what I can see, asbestos was in common use by the turn of the 20th
century. Prior to that, it was being discussed as being superior over wood
lagging in the late 1880s. It appears that somewhere being 1890 and 1910
would be a good time to indicate "common practice." I hope that helps.
Don

Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)
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Schoolmaster
Fireman

USA
1581 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  1:49:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The wonderful things you learn on this board.

Thanks.
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railman28
Fireman

USA
5330 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  3:28:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, this has been fun and informative.
Schoolmaster. You can't prove the negative or the nonexistent for only "what is" leaves evidence.
My modeling is based a couple of decades earlier than Dave's. So when I did my research for my shop I looked for practice of the 70's and 80's. As my shop will be feed with steam from a 300' (or so) suspended overhead line I looked for examples of lagged piping in historic photos and for specs of them in Tech. books published up to the end of the 19th century. I found nothing until the 1920's. I see no conflict in my research with usage in the 1890's. Especially on the east coast. And as I said earlier, I'm sure is was used first on navel vessels to protect crew members in tight quarters.

Dave, I have seen tissue paper used effectually to simulate asbestos wrapping in HO.

It's only make-believe
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deemery
Fireman

USA
7961 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  9:19:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I built a couple of machine tools tonight, and have some more to do tomorrow. That's real precision work, and so far I've only dropped & lost 1 piece.

dave

Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)
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