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Mike Hamer
Engineer
9345 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2011 : 9:57:09 PM
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Hi Jordan, It is fun following along with your planning of the layout. I recall my extreme enthusiasm when I was at the same stage way back when I planned my B&M pike. I have a friend who, like you, models a railroad not too far from our home up here in Ottawa, Ontario. It's a ton of fun going trackside and photographing the actual industries to model. Both you and my friend are lucky as the information is not too far at hand. (I have to research what went on back in the 50's)
That paint scheme sure is a "looker" in my books. Your protoype shots are great. Just a bit of advice when snapping shots of the models. Use a tripod and set the camera on delay so that the action of pressing the shutter does not create a blurry photo. Best model shots happen with the flash off as well.
I look forward to following your progress on the layout. For sure, model railroading is fun! [:-apple] [:-apple] |
All the best, Mike Hamer
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
http://craftsmanstructures.blogspot.com
http://bostonandmaine.blogspot.com
http://fridaynightgroup.blogspot.com |
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BOK
New Hire
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2011 : 10:32:44 PM
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All right lets talk about the dairy at Bloomer and some modeling ideas.
First I believe you were right about the ownership of the plant being AMPI (American Milk Producers Inc.) rather than LOLs. I recall the plant being coal fired and there was plenty of room on the siding for extra coal cars with the boiler room on the north east side of the building. A simple elevator/conveyor north of the unloading pit, could work to trans-load coal from rail to truck and move to the Jim Falls facility. In fact, it might have happened if the Cornell line had been abandoned before the Bloomer facility shut down.
Now about out bound product which was probably all mechanical reefer and loaded through a single, large door just south of the coal pit on the siding. I guess the real question would be, does butter and cheese still move by rail to government warehouses or is that program over? move by truck etc.? And if it does, could the Bloomer facility really be re-habbed for this service? The other thing is, is the market there to justify another plant with the Jim Falls facility close by and most important is there enough dairy farms to support it? Wisconsin is no longer the dairy state...California is. While we ponder those thoughts, let me share a story about the day the WN and the City of Bloomer hosted an out of town "speculator" who wanted to visit the dairy to see if it could be converted to an ethanol plant.
Now, you need to know that ethanol owners receive a government subsidy of a million dollars a year just for trying to manufacture and market ethanol. It does not matter whether they make a profit or not they still get the subsidy. With that in mind, I really think the "speculator" had one goal when he arrived at Bloomer that dark, fall day for his visit to talk with folks and tour the old dairy. He wanted to get funding from either the city, state or federal folks to build his plant so he could get the subsidy whether he made a success of the venture or not. I'll say one thing for him: he knew how to talk...a lot. In fact I was glad I was wearing my safety boots that day.
Shortly, after lunch, we all (about a dozen people)went over the old dairy and met the caretaker who opened up the building and led us on a floor by floor (I think it was either a two or three story building) tour and explained what processes were conducted in each room. Most of the old office furniture and manufacturing equipment was still there but in really sad shape. It was also kind of "spooky" walking in that old building especially in the basement cooler area? since most of the power was shut off and only limited lighting was available. It was easy to envision all the many people who had worked there through the years and all the noise and activity of the plant, which still smelled faintly of milk.
Unfortunately, the tour showed that the condition of the plant was badly in need of updated/improved electrical service, plumbing, sewer and structural repairs along with modern refrigeration equipment. The old stuff was simply wore out when they shut down, and it probably would have been too costly to renovate to meet government regulations for continued service. A side note. shortly after the tour and meeting with city folks, it was obvious to the "speculator" that 1. the dairy building would not work and 2. there was no easy, fast funding for his plant. He made a rather hasty but friendly departure and was not heard from again. All in all it was an interesting way to spend a fall afternoon in Wisconsin.
But let's not leave the subject of the dairy on a negative note. Let's say, there were enough dairy producers available and the government continued to buy reefers of butter and cheese? What would a modern, Bloomer, facility look like? I believe first it would be located north in the industrial park for better truck access and it would be a large, steel, single floor, refrigerated, structure with four truck doors and two rail doors along side a new six car spur off the WN. Okay, start dreaming and get out the Pikestuff building kits to construct a modern dairy plant.
Next time we'll talk about railroad connections other than the UP for the WN and where the locomotive facilities were/may still be located for the WN in CF. Some time remind me to tell you about another proposed/ but never built food shipper south of Rice Lake and the reefers we talked about painting for this service.
I have again rambled on way, too long and need to wrap this up. There is an Atlas Genset locomotive on my work bench which needs to have a DCC sound decoder installed.
Take Care,
Barry |
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INRAIL
Crew Chief
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2011 : 11:07:41 PM
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| This is going to be really cool! My kind of railroad. :o) |
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MarkF
Engineer
USA
9272 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2011 : 12:56:29 AM
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| I'm enjoying this as well. Jordon, you are very lucky to have someone like Barry to provide all of this valuable information and keep the juices flowing. It's going to be interesting to see how you translate all of this into your layout. |
Mark
See my homepage at http://home.comcast.net/~prrndiv/
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IAISfan
Engine Wiper
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2011 : 08:55:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jordan114
Hey Joe, Thank you for chiming in on my thread! First of all I want to say I really enjoyed your article in the MRP 2011! The article was one of the contributing factors of me swapping to a modern short line.
Very kind of you Jordan, thank you. I'm really glad to hear it was of some use to you, and humbled that it played a part in your decision. I think you've got the potential for a really great layout with the WN.
To be honest, I haven't kept up with all the newer short lines out there, and hadn't remembered hearing about the WN before. When I first read the title of your thread, I thought it was freelanced. [:-dunce] When I hear about the WN now, though, I'll associate it with you. So in my mind, it's "your" railroad now.
quote:
How is the layout progressing?
Slowly! After the article was finished, I turned my attention to preparing for a couple of big operating session weekends - ProRail in May and OS Omaha in June. Most of that work was invisible, just trying to be sure that things ran well, but I also worked on items to help operators (e.g. proper documentation, track diagrams on the fascia, etc.), added tall fascias around my staging yard, and put down my first-ever scenery - a layer of ground cover over the whole layout.
After the op session weekends, I was a little burned out on layout work, so I've spent the last several months upgrading my rolling stock roster. I replaced my LBF and Walthers Coalporters on my UP coal train detour with Athearn cars that had separate grab irons, and replaced all my old Athearn blue box and Accurail grain covered hoppers with newer ExactRail, Intermountain, and Tangent cars with etched running boards.
Most recently I've been putting the finishing touches on a few more locomotive and rolling stock projects and starting back to work on the layout, focusing on Bluffs yard and the enginehouse area there.
Updated photos are at http://www.iaisrailfans.org/gallery/Sub4WestEnd .
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I am very very happy with the decision of modeling the WN. Especially after Barry joining this thread! Like you said its very nice having an (ex)employee to share stories and information. Never talked to a railroad man before and its been so invaluable!
Definitely. Barry's a great guy, and one of the most helpful railroaders I've "met" on-line. I started speaking with him through the Proto-Layouts list on Yahoo Groups, and always value his input.
quote:
I am already enjoying and benefiting from my choice of modeling this awesome short line. And like your example living close to the railroad you model is very beneficial!! For example me today, I drove through New Auburn and saw the WN ex-SP SW1500 switching cars at the sand plant. Even just a short glimps I gain more and more information.
I'm really glad to hear it wasn't just me!  Over time, I think you'll see that just getting better and better.
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Modeling Iowa Interstate's West End, May 2005
http://www.iaisrailfans.org/gallery/Sub4WestEnd |
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Jordan114
Engine Wiper
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2011 : 11:17:51 AM
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Thank you all for the kind comments!
Barry: That is actually funny that you told me about the "The Weyerhaeuser Route" slogan. I was going to ask you that the next time I replied!![:-apple] I'm assuming the route to Ladysmith would have been for a connection to the CN?
Well after sleeping on it I dont think I will bring the old dairy back. Helping my dad on the farm (cash crop) for 17 years and being around the dairy industry for so long with my dad being a cow nutritionist I can see that this dairy would have had slim chances of surviving to this day. And with your story about going through the plant with the ethanol speculator pretty much sums up that the plant would need a major "overhaul" to get into operation again. But this is not a total loss to me. As Joe Atkinson is doing with his elevator in McClelland, Iowa, I will model a low relief structure resembling the plant or a photograph to add "past" to my layout. It will be a reminder of when Wisconsin was the dairy state! Plus I dont want to stretch too far from the truth and make the WN seem freelanced.
To be honest the old dairy looks way to small to be an ethanol plant. But Im sure if it was converted to an ethanol plant it would look nothing like it does today.
Just another question to add to the list[:-eyebrows]: Was/is there any bio diesel industry along the WN? I've seen photos of tank cars that were loaded with bio diesel but have no idea where they came from or where they were going.
Cant wait for the next stories Barry!! Thank you for taking your time to answer all my questions!
Mike: Thanks Mike! And yeah I notices the photos were blurry. [:-banghead] Never done model photography before so thanks for the advice!! Ill get some BETTER ones on here as soon as I can.
Tom: I was thinking this would be your kinda railroad. The pictures of your L&IN actually inspired me to model in the late summer/early fall. I cant give you all the credit though cause my girlfriend loves fall and thinks its cute how I love trains so I am mainly doing it for her.[:-eyebrows] But questions as to your beautiful scenery work will be going to you!
Joe: Lets call it even then. I didnt know the IAIS existed until your article!
I looked at the website about the IAIS and your layout! Looks really good so far!! I actually spent some time yesterday looking over the whole website and reading about the operations of the IAIS. Very awesome railroad indeed!
Keep up the good work Joe and cant wait to see/hear more about your progress!
My Turn[:-dopey]: Well due to unavailability of Athearn ACF 2970 (dont know if this is the EXACT hopper, but it would be my "good enough" as Allen McClelland would say.) hoppers Im left with no choice but to take a different turn from the "modern" sand operations going on right now. Every sand plant along the WN is using this particular hopper for this service. But all is not lost!! I can just model the Fall of 2010! This date is when sand operations were only located in New Auburn along the 100 car siding located there. The cars used for this service as I have mentioned before in this thread were Thrall gondolas. I have been able to find just a few 5 car sets but thats okay as this sand operation didnt need cars everyday. Usually a 100 car train was brought to the siding by the WN crew and left there for a front end loader to fill each car with sand. Which as you can guess took a very long time, maybe a week or 2 at a time. But Im going to ask more specifics about this operation.
Well thats all for now.
Enjoy!!
Jordan |
Modeling The Wisconsin Northern Railroad
"The Weyerhaeuser Route"
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IAISfan
Engine Wiper
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2011 : 11:59:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jordan114
As Joe Atkinson is doing with his elevator in McClelland, Iowa, I will model a low relief structure resembling the plant or a photograph to add "past" to my layout. It will be a reminder of when Wisconsin was the dairy state! Plus I dont want to stretch too far from the truth and make the WN seem freelanced.
In addition to McCelland, after the article went to press, I decided to do away with all my previous attempts to model industries that were no longer using rail by my era, or that didn't come along until later - a couple of cement plants and a transload operation. Without exception, I'm glad I did it. The limited impact on operation was more than offset by the enjoyment of knowing that I was finally modeling how things really were in my era, not some idealized version of reality. That really took the fun of this hobby to a whole new level for me. The other thing to keep in mind is that spurs serving these idle industries are sometimes used to store MOW rolling stock (e.g. company service flats, ballast cars, and boxcars), so you can still have a prototypical reason to switch those tracks, albeit infrequently.
quote:
Well due to unavailability of Athearn ACF 2970 (dont know if this is the EXACT hopper, but it would be my "good enough" as Allen McClelland would say.) hoppers Im left with no choice but to take a different turn from the "modern" sand operations going on right now. Every sand plant along the WN is using this particular hopper for this service.
Jordan, are you aware that Intermountain also offers a similar ACF 2-bay Center Flow covered hopper? You can see them all at http://www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/hohoppers.htm , about halfway down the page. Also, don't give up on the Athearns too quickly. I'd imagine they're still available through outlets like Ebay and the HOyardsale list on Yahoo Groups, as are the IM cars.
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Modeling Iowa Interstate's West End, May 2005
http://www.iaisrailfans.org/gallery/Sub4WestEnd |
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Jordan114
Engine Wiper
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2011 : 12:05:39 AM
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Thanks for your encouragement Joe! After I read your post I decided to take a harder look. And you'll never guess what turned up. I found at least 2 hobby shops that have undec Athearn versions. So now I get to model what I am watching today!
And I think I am just going to stick to strictly prototype. This will keep me focused on the job at hand. But like Barry said with short lines looking for more business every year, I dont think it will be long until more business pops up along the line!
Oh, and I was not aware of intermountain carrying them. Thanks for the heads up!
Do you think you will ever add the non railroad structures? Perhaps once most of the railroad is "complete"?
Thanks again Joe
Jordan |
Modeling The Wisconsin Northern Railroad
"The Weyerhaeuser Route"
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IAISfan
Engine Wiper
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2011 : 03:26:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jordan114
Do you think you will ever add the non railroad structures? Perhaps once most of the railroad is "complete"?
What non-railroad structures are you referring to Jordan?
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Modeling Iowa Interstate's West End, May 2005
http://www.iaisrailfans.org/gallery/Sub4WestEnd |
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Jordan114
Engine Wiper
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2011 : 09:42:11 AM
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quote:
In addition to McCelland, after the article went to press, I decided to do away with all my previous attempts to model industries that were no longer using rail by my era, or that didn't come along until later - a couple of cement plants and a transload operation.
Will you ever model these (ex) industries such as McClelland Elevator, perhaps after you have the layout complete? Sorry if this isnt making any sense.
Jordan |
Modeling The Wisconsin Northern Railroad
"The Weyerhaeuser Route"
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IAISfan
Engine Wiper
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2011 : 1:54:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jordan114
quote:
In addition to McCelland, after the article went to press, I decided to do away with all my previous attempts to model industries that were no longer using rail by my era, or that didn't come along until later - a couple of cement plants and a transload operation.
Will you ever model these (ex) industries such as McClelland Elevator, perhaps after you have the layout complete?
Oh, sorry. Yes, I'm planning to model everything within each layout element as I build through the area, regardless of whether they're actively getting rail service. They're still a big part of recognizing the respective areas, so things wouldn't look right without them. McClelland Elevator in McClelland and Ready Mixed Concrete in Council Bluffs will both be 3D models, while American Concrete in Atlantic is about a quarter mile south of the tracks, so it's only seen on the photo backdrop, with the spur (labeled "wye" in the MRP layout plan) diverging in that direction before running into the backdrop.
The double-ended siding that would go on to serve Ready Mixed in August 2005 on my prototype was still in use during my spring 2005 era as an overflow storage track for busy Searle Petroleum, so it'll probably be switched even more frequently now than it was under my original plan. I just won't have an excuse to model those two-bay cement covered hoppers I like. I'll have to live vicariously through yours!
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Modeling Iowa Interstate's West End, May 2005
http://www.iaisrailfans.org/gallery/Sub4WestEnd |
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BOK
New Hire
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2011 : 5:12:21 PM
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Good Afternoon Jordan and all:
Jordan had previously asked about interchange connections for the WN.
When the lease arrangement was put together for the WN leasing the UP track from CF-Cameron
(the line from Cameron to Rice Lake had previously been purchased by the WC when it was part of the Cameron-Superior purchase which is another interesting tale)the boundaries were established so the WN could not physically reach the CN at CF. This was done so the UP could control all the traffic coming off the WN.
Even if the WN did have operating rights down the hill from Norma and across the river to meet the CN, there is no interchange track between the CN and UP. Originally, there was a push in-pull out interchange track between the Soo and CNW but it was not a "through" type interchange and there wasn't room to build one without a lot of expense.
Aside from this, the bridge over the river south of Norma (CF)has a weight restriction of 268,000 lbs. not 286,000 lbs. like modern freight car loadings which limits the weight of cars interchanged to/from the WN. In order to remedy this situation it would be extremely expensive to replace bridge members on the Eau Claire (?) river bridge to handle heavier cars. With that in mind, I wonder if the sand cars now handling that new business are being "light loaded" (not loaded to full visible capacity or the sand does not weigh as much as say loaded plastic resin cars) or can be "full loaded" to capacity without exceeding the bridge capacity weight? That bridge weight "issue" was another thing the "rail wanna be" failed to understand before he signed the agreement with the UP to lease the line which further weakened future, marketing possibilities for the WN. This was little known fact which was discovered shortly after we took over operations on the line but too late to back out of the deal.
Okay, if the WN couldn't reach the CN via CF then why not re-hab/rebuild the track from Cameron to Ladysmith for another class 1, railroad connection? In principle a good idea and it was strongly considered until the cost of placing it back in operation was discovered.
When the topic of purchasing the CN line was discussed by PGR folks, I explained that the former Soo/WC track was in such poor condition when the WC operated it, (it had been part of my territory as WC trainmaster out of New Brighton, MN) in it would cost millions of dollars just to get the line to a safe, 10 MPH operation. Added to this would be the crew time/expense of taking at least 8 hours just to make a round trip over and back from Cameron to Ladysmith not including any revenue switch moves enroute. In short, there had/has to be some really good revenue/possibilities/new business on line to support the millions needed to re-build it. In addition, the tall, steel bridge over the river just east of Cameron still gives me shivers and I doubt that without maintenence being performed in the last ten years on it, it's not in good shape. It would be a shame to spend a lot of money to re-hab the line and then have the bridge fail. BTW at this time the point is moot, since the CN still owns it from Ladysmith to Almena and the Counties are attempting to buy it to lease to the WN or another railroad.
Again, not to leave on a "sour" note. It would be easy to "envision" if for modeling purposes, that another sand or ethanol plant was built at say, Weyerhauser, they re-habbed the little yard there and put on a switcher local to handle that new business plus feed both Cameron and Ladysmith (I would bet the CN would be happy to have you switch the propane distributor at Ladysmith for them). Now if that new plant (Walthers Glacier Gravel) is on a long spur, maybe a couple of miles and across road crossings then you will definitely need a caboose ( how about one of the old MP (Missouri Pacific last road cabooses)for safe shoves and no run around track at the end of the line...there you go a prototype you can model. Now that I think of it, there were some large, sand, gravel,rock pits/quarries south of that line that the WN bought trucked in ballast from when the line was re-tied after lease. There you go, the reason to go to Ladysmith.
Before I close this "way to long" post, remind sometime to tell you of my "idea" for a steam excursion/diesel dinner train on the WN. Think Soo Line 2719. That was thought up one day when I had way too much time on my hands working as an engineer moving salt cars on the Norma wye every half hour for unloading.
Jordan, you had previously asked where the WN diesel servicing facilities were located? We determined the best place to tie down the units was the lead to Pliant plastics since it was well lighted (security), there was adequate employee parking and we used the fax machine inside the plant to receive interchange lists from the UP. Fuel was delivered friday afternoons by truck, either at that location or on-line if the power (locomotives)were tied up short of CF on tuesdays/thursdays. Any repairs/inspections were performed there and sand was shipped up to Badger Resources in Chetek where we use their fork lift to raise pallets of sand bags for weekly sanding of the locomotives. Most of the office/computer work was conducted out of our (mine and my wife's Eau Claire condo). See you really don't need much in the way of facilities to run a short line. However, with the increase in business, more crews and locomotives I would bet that the WN either has office/maintenence/supply storage at the new, CF, sand plant or is building one close by. It will be interesting to see how things progress for them and I wish them all the best.
I am always open to your questions and clarifications. Until next time, take care.
Barry |
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Jordan114
Engine Wiper
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2011 : 11:41:26 PM
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Joe I'll try not to rub it in too much. Here is link to a video of what the sand trains will look like up and down the UP and WN.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRK9ZoPEnds
And I can finally answer one of your questions Barry![:-apple] I have seen in photos of the gondolas that were used for hauling sand and they only had them filled about half full. And just last week when the first sand train using the new covered hoppers arrived in Norma, one of the hoppers had to be sent back to New Auburn, because it was over loaded with sand. So that explains both of those situations!
And thanks a lot explaining the interchanges. Now I know why the WN isnt connected with the CN at Ladysmith. And I enjoyed your little story as to how to resurrect this line. I've always wanted to model an ethanol plant!! And the caboose idea is GREAT! Doesnt PGR have its own caboose. Now isnt Soo 2719 displayed in Ladysmith? That is another great idea.
I think it would be cool if the WN builds an engine facility. Great for modeling!
I want to write more but this is it for tonight. Just got done harvesting 250 acres of Soybeans in less than 24 hours and Im pooped! Ill write more tomorrow.
Jordan |
Modeling The Wisconsin Northern Railroad
"The Weyerhaeuser Route"
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IAISfan
Engine Wiper
USA
206 Posts |
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Jordan114
Engine Wiper
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 10:08:59 PM
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Well Im gonna say right now that, that WN video and all the other ones on YouTube are from a man named Chris that plies the WN rails to capture such amazing videos of the WN at work. Much of his videos are all I have for insight about how the WN operates "visually". I hope to start getting out more to get my own glimpse of the WN.
But Im glad you enjoyed the videos!!
Jordan |
Modeling The Wisconsin Northern Railroad
"The Weyerhaeuser Route"
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The Wisconsin Northern Railroad
