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deemery
Fireman
USA
3735 Posts |
 Posted - 08/02/2009 : 6:10:17 PM
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If you're going to use Tortoses through more than about 1/2" of subroadbed, consider replacing the wire that comes with it with .032 steel music wire. The stronger wire works better for the longer reach through the subroadbed.
dave |
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Vagel Keller
Crew Chief
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 11:22:27 AM
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Hi, all.
Just got the these in-progress shots of the control panel for the turntable tracks in the standard gauge engine terminal from Slaughterhouse Switch & Signal. Don is jammin'!
These on/off toggles came with the leads installed, which I'm sure made Don's work easier, but, still, ya gotta be impressed!
We're getting together tomorrow after a 4-week hiatus to get the Buchahan branch back in operation with tortoise-controlled turnouts.
Vagel |
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Vagel Keller
Crew Chief
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 6:03:02 PM
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Today, Don and I made great progress on installing the Tortoise machines to control the narrow gauge turnouts at Buchanan. We settled on using Frederic Testard's design for mounting plates, so we went to one of the few real hardware stores still left in the Pittsburgh area -- Masters Hardware in Swissvale -- to secure the flat head bolts and nuts and round head wood screws and washers needed to mount the machines to the 5/16" plywood plates and the plates to the underside of the layout.
For ease of soldering and future maintenance or replacement of switch machines, all wires coming in from the power buses or DPDT switches and going out to the frogs will be soldered to edge connectors, which will then be slipped onto the circuit board at the bottoms of the machines. Here is a sample shot of that arrangement on the first machine to be fully installed. This machine was mounted directly to the subroadbed before we decided to use the mounting plates.
In the zoom shot below, the DC power for the motor runs to positions 1 & 8. DCC power from the outside rail power bus goes to position 2, from the inside rail power bus to 3, and the variable polarity DCC power going to the frog runs from position 4. Positions 5, 6 & 7 are used to control signals that reflect track routing via the turnout (fortunately, the B&SGE is not so advanced that it employs CTC!).
We want the orientation of the DPDT toggle on the panel to reflect the track routing, so it is necessary to swap the DC power leads between positions 1 & 8 until the polarity is correct. It is much easier to do this on an edge connector before soldering than it is with the circuit board on the base of the Tortoise machine.
Here is an overview from the east end of Buchanan with the first of the Tortoise machines mounted with the "Testard Apparatus."
The mounting plate with slots for the mounting screws makes it possible for one person to mount the machines and tweak the alignment. What a great idea!?
And here's an example of how the "Testard Apparatus" allows one to compensate for turnouts being too close to the edge.
This is where we left off for the day, but as I was turning out the lights, I discovered that Slaughterhouse Switch & Signal had pre-positioned the panel and Tortoise machine for Kalbach (formerly Shoup's Run).
This really was hump day for the Tortoise machine project. We'll be done with this really soon and moving onto the standard gauge turntable project. Stay tuned.
Vagel
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AVRR-PA
Fireman
USA
4657 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 9:28:27 PM
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It was indeed a fun and productive day. I have a little touchup painting to do on the control panels. I'm also adding knobs to them so they can be pulled open - it takes quite a bit of force against the power of the two magnetic cabinet latches and you need something to grab. I'm making the knobs from oak "buttons" - the thingies that are normally used to cover screw heads. I'll post a picture when they're done.
Once Vagel becomes the guru of Tortoises, I'm going to schlep my FreeMo module over to his place and add them to the three LITCO narrow gauge turnouts.
Don |
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Frederic Testard
Engineer
France
16524 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2009 : 02:44:45 AM
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Well, guys, nice work on the tortoises and, Vagel, thanks for the name given to the device... 
I can't remember if you've mentioned somewhere the place where you bought the 10 pin plug you add to the bottom of the tortoise. Although I regret the lack of a "screwing wires device", it looks like a good solution to keep things clean and simple. |
Frederic Testard |
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AVRR-PA
Fireman
USA
4657 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2009 : 12:16:06 PM
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Hi, Frederic --
At some point in this thread, I expressed my frustration with Circuitron's unhelpful website and lack of response to e-mailed requests for help. On of the forum-folks pointed me to an excellent source of technical information on Tortoises and a whole lot of other products:
http://www.amhobby.com/products/tech/circuitron/edge-connectors.htm
This link takes you directly to the information about edge connectors, including stock numbers, phone numbers, URL, etc. But if you go "up" on the website a couple of levels (to "Tech") you'll find lots of very helpful sheets on many other subjects.
I believe Vagel is definitely finding the edge connectors a lot easier to use then soldering directly to the machines. Not exactly cheap at $3.355 each but worth it.
Back to work,
Don |
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Frederic Testard
Engineer
France
16524 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2009 : 7:44:53 PM
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| Thanks for the link, Don. I just watched the tortoise part but it is already full of precise information. |
Frederic Testard |
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AVRR-PA
Fireman
USA
4657 Posts |
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Frederic Testard
Engineer
France
16524 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2009 : 5:16:52 PM
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| Nice information in this article, Don. Now we seem to have many various solutions to install these motors. Thanks to you and Arthur for sharing. |
Frederic Testard |
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Vagel Keller
Crew Chief
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2009 : 11:14:54 PM
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We got a lot done today, not least of which was finally "putting to bed" the control panel and Tortoise machine installation for the Buchanan yard. Here is an overview of four of the five machines installed and working, keyed to the Slaughterhouse Switch & Signal panel:
The machine linked to the red arrow (mine tipple tracks 1 & 2) was the subject of our efforts today, and as with the machine that links the tipple tracks to the main it took about 2 hours of tinkering to install.
But first to other things. When Don arrived I had just finished the first step in preparing the sub-roadbed at Kalbach for Tortoise installation. This required the replacement of the original 1x3 splice plate supporting the joint between two 1/2" plywood pieces with a thinner piece of 5/16" Luan plywood. Here is an overhead shot of the site, with turnout removed and splice plate glued in place awaiting the cutting of the new slot for the Tortoise throw arm:
While I was finishing this, Don was installing an upgraded frame for the SS&S panel that allowed for the use of cupboard door magnets to hold it in place. He also brought along his 5-minute epoxy kit to cement the steel plates and the barrier strips in place on the back of the hardboard panel. Here is a shot of Don in his role as human clamp. Note that Don is wearing the appropriate color latex gloves to match my spring clamps from a "most favored nation" that shall remain nameless (hint: doesn't get along too well with Tibet).
In the background note that we are still running trains between work sessions, although the dust we've generated with some of our more "excavative" moments has created some problems with the steam locos.
Here's the rear of the Buchanan panel finally installed for good. That's the hidden standard gauge line from the museum terminal via the time tunnel to the 1938 portal at Ft. Loudon passing behind the panel; the cable lying over the track is the DC power line for the Tortoise machine at the mine tipple, which now passes underneath the sub-roadbed. The removable panel will serve as an access hatch to the hidden trackage in case of derailments, etc. in the future.
Installation of the Tortoise for the mine tipple turnout proved to be an extraordinary challenge as it interfered with a vertical support. Fortunately, we were lucky to be able make it fit by cutting a notch in the "Testard Device" and having enough length of the turnout's throw arm to allow for a significant offset. Here's a shot from underneath, showing the notch in the Testard patent mounting plate to hug the vertical support:
With the Tortoise machine in place, the next step was to align the turnout over the throw wire. This was vice versa from the procedure with the other machines, but because of the clearance issues with the vertical support and the fact that we we had some little bit of leeway in the orientation of the two stub-end tipple tracks, I decided to let the location of the Tortoise dictate the location of the turnout in this situation. Don captured me in this process. That's not "product" from a hair salon; the A/C keeps the temp in the layout room at a relatively comfortable level, but Pittsburgh is stuck in a really high humidity zone this week!
When all was connected up, we had a really strange conundrum. There is an irregularity in the cork roadbed, probably caused by trying to sand it flat at the awkward height and distance from the aisle, that causes the turnout assembly to twist along its longitudinal axis when it is pressed firmly against the roadbed. This results in enough resistance to the throw arm to prevent good contact between the points and the stock rails. We found that the turnout functioned perfectly at an angle of repose equal to the thickness of the roadbed, so this turnout will be on a grade as shown in the following image:
In retrospect, we surmise that the Buchanan project would better have been done as a module, with the Tortoise machine installation done at the workbench rather than under the layout. That will certainly be the way we approach the next such project: the dual gauge interchange yard at Richmond Furnace several years hence!
Lastly, I will leave you with this image of the control panel for the turntable in the museum engine terminal, which Don tauntingly left as a reminder of our next session a week from now ...
Until then, see you on the railroad.
Vagel |
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AVRR-PA
Fireman
USA
4657 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 07:01:35 AM
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Yesterday was my first real, hands-on participation in installing a Tortoise and I totally agree with Vagel about using the module approach to future construction. It would have been a lot easier if we had built Buchanan on a single sheet of plywood, made it removeable, and done all the Tortoises with it standing on edge on the bench. Them is fussy little buggers! [:-banghead]
We discovered a slight disadvantage to using the relatively inexpensive 10 position edge connectors on an 8-position strip. If you bump them, you can move them sideways and cause a mysterious short. With four hands under the layout, sweating and struggling, it's easy to bump an adjacent machine. Now that we know what to look for, it's easy to check after working and before turning on the power supply.
I believe the plan for next week is to set up an assembly line to create and wire the track/rail subassemblies leading from the turntable into the roundhouse. We also need to mount the on/off panel - Vagel is thinking about mounting it in podium fashion so it's more easily used by the hostler. Plenty to do next Wednesday.
And, of course, we ended the day at Ritter's Diner for a low-calorie (right....) lunch.
Don |
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MarkF
Engineer
USA
9329 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 09:49:30 AM
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You guys are making great progress! I have enjoyed reading about your woes and successes with the tortoise installation. For me, this is one of the worst parts of building a layout. Fortunately I have forum member SteamNut to rely on, who is a wiz at switch machine installation!
I also use those connectors for my tortoises and appreciate the simplicity of them. As for the alignment of the connector, I know what you mean about the potential for a short due to them not aligning correctly. While I never did it on my old layout, I pondered the idea of inserting a shim of plastic in the connector so that it wouldn't slide side to side, ensuring proper alignment to only the 8 pins on the tortoise. Just a thought. You might want to give it a try. |
Mark
See my homepage at http://home.comcast.net/~prrndiv/
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AVRR-PA
Fireman
USA
4657 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2009 : 10:52:34 AM
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Hi, Mark --
I like your idea of adding something - a small piece of styrene or even wood - to the edge connectors so they can't move from side to side. I'll try it with regular plastic cement and see if it holds; if not, we can try ACC.
Vagel is trying to track down a ghost short in one of the Buchanan turnouts. It makes my brain hurt just rying to imagine what might be causing such a wierd problem. Maybe he'll post something about it once he has the problem fixed.
Don |
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Vagel Keller
Crew Chief
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2009 : 12:55:43 AM
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NOTE TO READERS: As of this date in the future (Nov. 1, 2009), the problem discussed in this post and follow-on replies has been solved ... jump to Page 29 to read the explanation, then return here to follow the chronicle of the overall project. vck
As a follow up to Don's "leak to the press" about the problems experienced with the turnout to the mine tipple, here is the chronicle to date. First, yesterday's note (8/19/09):
"Hi, Don. Spent some time dealing with two issues today. On the one hand, I ran variable DC power to the in-coming terminal strip on the Kalbach panel and wired the leads from the out-going strip. Drilled the appropriate holes in the new splice plate there too, so all is in readiness for Tortoise installation tomorrow. THIS TORTOISE INSTALLATION DIDN'T HAPPEN ... READ ON On the other hand ...
"There is a ghost short in the turnout at the mine in Buchanan that I didn't find until I tried to run a locomotive over it. When I had the Tortoise all wired up and turned on layout and DCC track power, no shorts. But when the loco is completely on the turnout (ie, past the insulated rail joiners) it shorts. I detached the DCC wiring, leaving only the DC motor power, and it still shorts; in fact, it shorts even when the Tortoise is completely isolated and only DCC power is run to the stock rails. I think it's a bad turnout, so I'm going to try two things tomorrow, both of which follow the "random success" methodology: first, I'll disconnect the turnout from the power buses and replace the insulated rail joiners with metal ones. If there's still a short, I'll swap it for the turnout that's been at Kalbach tomorrow. After that, I don't know what I'll do if the problem doesn't go away ..."
HERE IS MY EMAIL TO DON WITH THE RESULTS OF TODAY'S (8/20/09) EXPERIMENTS:
"Well, I think I figured it out, and my guess is that the turnout isn't bad, but it's intolerant of non-perfect roadbed. The first thing I did this morning was isolate the turnout from the power bus, making it dependent on the rail joiners for track power. Interestingly, the first time I ran the loco through it after that, it didn't short, but when I spiked down the flex track at either end, the short came back. That, plus the fact that the short only occurs when the locomotive is centered over the frog, suggests to me that it's a combination of the loco and the frog that's bridging something that wouldn't ordinarily be "bridgable". So, I swapped it out for the turnout from Kalbach ... no short. I'll try the problematic one at Kalbach to see what happens there; I'm betting it'll be fine.
"As for the turnout at the tipple, I'm going to let well enough alone and not run any leads from the bus to either the turnout or the Tortoise. I'll use the Tortoise to control the points only and depend on soldered rail joiners and the pressure from the Tortoise wire for continuity of track power through the whole assembly."
LATER IN THE DAY ...
"It's official: that turnout is bad. Same short resulted when installed at Kalbach. The line will remain severed until I can get a replacement."
FINAL NOTE:
I'm not convinced that the problem with this turnout is a manufacturing defect, but rather a problem induced from soldering the three lead wires to the stock rails and frog necessary for preparing it for Tortoise installation. After talking with Kevin Kuzman (a founding member of LITCo and still-practicing turnout maker) this evening, I'm not sure that the problem wasn't caused by too much heat getting to the copper sheathed switch ties when I soldered the three power leads to the stock rails and frog in preparation for Tortoise installation. Each of those ties had a gap scribed in its center during fabrication, and the heat from soldering may have closed one of those gaps, so I'm going to re-scribe those gaps with an Exacto blade and see if that solves the problem. Failing that, it'll be what NG&SL Gazette publisher Bob Brown calls "posh junk."
If you're still clear on this after all the verbiage, congratulations. If not, now you know why Don's brain hurts and I'm single handedly paying the light bill for our neighborhood liquor store these days!
Vagel |
Edited by - Vagel Keller on 11/01/2009 7:39:12 PM |
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AVRR-PA
Fireman
USA
4657 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2009 : 1:16:01 PM
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Better you than me, Vagel. There's something about the way electrons flow through a model turnout that reminds me of the wiring in an old basement. Everything going every which way and wires crossing over each other -- yeek!
Here's a small lesson we learned might be worth passing along. We drilled holes through the uprights that support the roadbed and ran the bus wiring through the holes. Seemed like a good idea at the time but then when we needed to move some of the uprights to make space for switch machines, it turned out to be a pain.
For Phase II, we're talking about using some kind of wire hangers that are screwed to the uprights and can be removed.
Here's one of the more creative ideas I've seen -- use the pull tabs from beer/soft drink cans. You run a dry wall screw through the tab - no need to pre-drill - and run your wires through the finger loop. How's that for recycling? 
Don |
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New Home for the Blacklog & Shade Gap Eastern
