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nhguy
Fireman
USA
3665 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2012 : 8:57:45 PM
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| Now that looks right! You can tell a very little color difference between the gray and tan, but that's what you want. And tamping puts in a 'randomness' to it making it more believable. By jove, I think he's got it! |
Bill Shanaman
Superintendent, New Haven RR in the 1948 to 1952 era
PMRA President 2013-14, OpSIG Member
NCE User Since 1999
Sugar City, Colorado |
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Harsco
Fireman
USA
1101 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 9:55:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nhguy
Now that looks right! You can tell a very little color difference between the gray and tan, but that's what you want. And tamping puts in a 'randomness' to it making it more believable. By jove, I think he's got it!
Great.. I now have 2 yards (Division and Maclay Streets) done only with black cinders that can't be modified, since everything is glued down, solid as a rock. I must admit it does look better than straight black, but I would caution anyone trying this to GO LIGHT on the contrasting colors; you can always add more if you need it. |
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George D
Moderator
USA
9906 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 07:48:28 AM
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Rick,
Your discussion about using grout has me doing some thinking too (also wandering into a dangerous area for me  ). I see a lot of potential for track ballasting.
George |
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Harsco
Fireman
USA
1101 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 10:03:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by George D
Rick,
Your discussion about using grout has me doing some thinking too (also wandering into a dangerous area for me ). I see a lot of potential for track ballasting.
George
George, the only drawback I can see is the size of the granules; compared to WS or other brands, it's going to look much smaller, which may or may not be a problem for you. To better illustrate the differences, here's picture of a grout-only track in Division:
And here's a WS Cinder and black grout combination I'm experimenting with in Market Street:
You can see the larger WS ballast between the rails and tie ends with the grout "fading out" towards the ground...
As far as which is better, it depends on your own tastes; personally, I like how the grout settles down nicely without sticking to the ties and spikes; a few swipes of a fluffy ballast brush and everything's in place...even better, it doesn't scatter around when you spray wetting agent on it either. If memory serves, a 2 lb carton of grout costs about four to five dollars.
Where I really think the grout shines from an appearance and ease of use perspective is in modeling asphalt roads; so far I've futzed with regular and lightweight spackle, plastic, and illustration board with a paper texture but can't beat the grout for how easy it is to apply. And, being a smaller granule, it provides a rough texture without being grossly over-sized.
The grout comes in an array of different colors, and part of the experimental process for me will be to try to find something close to weathered concrete for modeling streets...scribing in expansion joints might prove challenging since the wetting agent/white glue adhesive turns this stuff rock hard. Perhaps the solution might be to glue tiny strips of cardboard or plastic as formers, then build up the grout in light layers....
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George D
Moderator
USA
9906 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 10:23:38 AM
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Rick,
For my tastes, I think the grout looks better, especially in yards and industrial sidings.
George |
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nhguy
Fireman
USA
3665 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 2:24:43 PM
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OK Great idea #2. What about mixing the WS cinders with the grout? Hmmmm..
Here's what I think is happening with the WS ballast. It is made from crushed walnut shells. I'm thinking the reason we have so much trouble with it sticking to the ties and rails is maybe it carries a 'static charge' or gets one while it it being moved around with a brush. I am going to try and ground the rails to a ground when applied to see if this has any difference in the way it behaves.
If you use Arizona Rock & Mineral real stone you don't have that issue. I am using sieved Oregon river sand on my valley branch. This was collected for me by my friend Lee Nicholas/UCRR. I have 2-5 gallon buckets of the stuff. It closely resembles cinders also. Just a little lighter. (See page 12, second photo of the pond in my construction thread). It is very close in color to what was there prior to 1962 re-ballasting of the line. |
Bill Shanaman
Superintendent, New Haven RR in the 1948 to 1952 era
PMRA President 2013-14, OpSIG Member
NCE User Since 1999
Sugar City, Colorado |
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MarkF
Engineer
USA
9272 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 3:14:45 PM
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| I'm watching this discussion closely and with great interest. Rick, that last picture you posted I think looks even better because of the variety of materials in the track. Industrial and yard trackage is never finely ballasted, but rather takes on a look of abuse with cinders, stone, mud and weeds, depending of course of where the track is and how often it is used. I think what you have there looks great for industrial trackage since there are different grades of stone/cinders, different colors and weeds thrown into the mix. |
Mark
See my homepage at http://home.comcast.net/~prrndiv/
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Harsco
Fireman
USA
1101 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 9:43:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nhguy
OK Great idea #2. What about mixing the WS cinders with the grout? Hmmmm..
Here's what I think is happening with the WS ballast. It is made from crushed walnut shells. I'm thinking the reason we have so much trouble with it sticking to the ties and rails is maybe it carries a 'static charge' or gets one while it it being moved around with a brush. I am going to try and ground the rails to a ground when applied to see if this has any difference in the way it behaves.
If you use Arizona Rock & Mineral real stone you don't have that issue. I am using sieved Oregon river sand on my valley branch. This was collected for me by my friend Lee Nicholas/UCRR. I have 2-5 gallon buckets of the stuff. It closely resembles cinders also. Just a little lighter. (See page 12, second photo of the pond in my construction thread). It is very close in color to what was there prior to 1962 re-ballasting of the line.
Bill, unfortunately I bought a LOT of WS ballast and got a fair amount done before annoyance really began setting in. I've suggested to Mark that given a choice, he should investigate the Arizona Rock approach, since I suspect that material has enough heft to sit down and stay down.
I also think you're correct about the static electricity; fortunately Steam showed me an old trick of tapping the rail with a metal spoon to dislodge any stuck walnut shells before applying glue. That and Tim/Dutchman's suggestion of the paint pad a couple of dozen pages ago also works well too.
I'm not sure about the mixing idea and will have to give it a try; the second photo shows a light application of WS Cinders that was followed by a coating of the grout to fill in the bare spots as well as give it that oily dirt look.
If you're thinking of premixing the ingredients, I'd recommend going light on the grey, tan, and red to see how it'll look...you can always add more if you're not satisfied. |
Edited by - Harsco on 06/09/2012 9:45:01 PM |
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LVRALPH
Fireman
5429 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 05:07:06 AM
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| This is the best discussion I have read on the subject of ballast since I have been in the hobby. Like Rick, I too have the same issues with WS ballast. It works, but you have to "work: with it. I am going up to Lowes to try some of your methods. |
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Mainframer
Engine Wiper
USA
304 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 6:13:13 PM
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| Rick, Thanks for doing the grout experiments for us. Phil (Carrie Creek) sent me an email saying to look at your thread. I am attempting to use grout also for my engine yard and sawmill area. I am using Polyblend sanded grout from HD in Summer wheat and Earth. I am thinking of using the summer wheat in the sawmill area as it has some yellowish color to look like sawdust is mixed in with the dry dirt. Earth is a little darker. I have some Highball linestone cinders I was going to mix in with the grout like you are doing around the engine facilities. You have given me some real examples of using the grout. I most certainly use them in doing mine. Thanks again for the ideas. Tom |
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rmcconnell
New Hire
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2012 : 12:22:27 PM
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I'm a little late to this thread, only finding it recently from Mike McNamara's blog. But I did see another style of paper buildings I haven't seen mentioned. At the 2010 NYS Train Fair, my wife dragged me to a table where there was a demonstration of drawing buildings, textures, doors and windows on four-ply Bristol board. He used standard drawing tools and techniques, then cut out the results and glued them together with an occasional piece of wood to add stability. Painting was optional, he suggested Floquil. This would produce a simple 3D prototype to stand in while you get just the right photographs to paste onto the next version. I found the four-ply Bristol at both A.C. Moore and Michael's. It's about 3/32 thick.
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nhguy
Fireman
USA
3665 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 02:16:25 AM
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I had some time after work to try out some different formulas for cinder ballast using the same grout sand product Rick used. I took the photos using my Sony 12mpix Cyber-shot digital camera with no flash and just used the florescent bulbs that are one cool white and one daylight bulb in a four foot fixture.
I used Midnight Black, smoke gray, silt and terra cotta.
In this first image is the Woodland Scenic fine ballast I have.
This is just the midnight black grout sand.
Here is a comparison of the two. Notice that the WS ballast is courser and blacker.
This is a mix of equal parts of gray, silt and terr cotta #1.
This mix uses more terra cotta than the other colors #2.
This uses more gray color #3.
This uses more silt color #4.
This was the mix of WS ballast and #1 or #5
An interesting thing happened when I poured the WS mix and the #1 mix on the track. As I was pouring the side, the WS came to the top, being lighter, forming a totally black uneven ballast edge. I thought that was pretty neat how that happened. The mix tended to stay put in between the ties on the track but formed the black edge when poured.
This is a photo of the track area I used with all the test mixes applied. I did not use glue or any bonding agent. So they would get a little darker when glued down.
So which do you guys think is the better looking cinder mix?
I personally like the WS and sand mix because it is so uneven and of different textures. Bill |
Bill Shanaman
Superintendent, New Haven RR in the 1948 to 1952 era
PMRA President 2013-14, OpSIG Member
NCE User Since 1999
Sugar City, Colorado |
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Harsco
Fireman
USA
1101 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 05:50:01 AM
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Nice array, Bill....being honest, I like them all; the ratios look right and in real life would probably vary anyway. I'm leaning towards the WS and grout mixture too, although maybe going towards more grout in engine termimal areas to simulate that oil-soaked dirt look.
A question: did you pre-mix the different variations or use the "sprinkle and tamp" technique?
One item of note to anyone following this thread: based on his experience in the construction trade, Jim Musser told me that since it containes a special adhesive in place of regular grout's cement, the Spectra-Lok will not "haze" when it dries, which means you cannot use regular sanded grout for thisd application...it has to be the Spectra-Lok. |
Edited by - Harsco on 06/19/2012 05:51:55 AM |
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hunter48820
Fireman
6024 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 07:36:09 AM
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Bill,
Thanks much for the time you took to do this. I can see some great uses for this product in yards, sidings and engine servicing facilities. Also, your ties really look realisitic with the individual painting that you did varying the colors. With that grout ballast, I think it works great for non mainline track.
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Best, Andy Keeney
Look out for #1, but don't step in #2! |
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George D
Moderator
USA
9906 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 08:59:22 AM
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Bill, I like the darker mixes, but I'm thinking in terms of an idea I have for using the grout for ballast in an industrial area.
Rick, thanks for tip on Spectra-Lok.
George |
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Harrisburg Terminal Railroad (HTRR)
